Who Are The Cardinals?
by mbn on Sep 29, 2009 3:28 PM MDT
49 comments
The game against the Colts highlighted several weaknesses in the Cardinals personnel (i.e., OT, and the lack of pass rush by the OLB.), but it also highlighted a bigger question in my mind. Who are the Cardinals? You know what the Colts are. They are a pass oriented offense and they have build their team around that notion. That is who they are and who they will be. Their defense if designed to stop the pass. They can build future pieces into the system because they know who they are. They can do this because of Peyton Manning.
Who are the Cardinals? Are they a pass oriented offense- yes, this year. The Cards have the skill players that fit that description but obviously the offensive line does not. The OL seems more designed to plow block in a running game, yet they haven't really demonstrated that ability yet. Warner is the quarterback for now but what should the Cardinals be building for in two years? Will they be a pass oriented team? Will they be a ball control, play-action team (which I think fits Leinart's ability better)? Should they keep two high-priced receivers? All consistently great teams have a system and have a vision and find players to fit it.
The same questions could be asked on the defensive side. Right now the defense seems build to bend but not break so that the offense can outscore the opponent. (Someone needs to teach DRC this principle) That approach won't be very effective if the offense is a ball-control offense. The front seven have demonstrated an ability to stop the run (if we could convince Berry to hold the edge just one time!). Is that by design or has the increased beef along the DL just naturally had this effect? The defense is only a few pass rushers away from being solid. Why didn't we go that way in the off season?
So what are the Cardinals trying to become? Why did we draft a running back and took a pass on pass-rushers in the first round? (That is not intended to slight B.Wells or C. Brown- just a question of priorities.) What is the vision?
For me the Colts game made me wonder where the Cardinals are going? (I am assuming we are not just making it up as we go along.) From what you have seen and heard will the Cards move towards a Steelers-style of offense? If so what does that mean for Boldin? Should we expect an increased focus on the OLB in the off season? Is Dansby that essential for the future? Anybody think they have a clear and consistant picutre of where Graves, Whiz, and the front office is taking this team?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Revenge of the Birds' (ROTB) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of ROTB's editors.
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Boldin
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They need more of him, he is an absolute freak. Let him run the ball more and take it from the wildcat. He played QB in college let him air it out to Fitz
I think they know what they are trying to do.
I think whiz is just playing this team based on the personnel which would be a pass first offense but is wanting to build this team into a run first offense. Something that I think all of us believe will fit Leinart’s style better. I think that is why the Cards took Beanie, an attempt to try and get this team to the style of play they want. Right now though they are just playing to the strength while trying to build the strength they want over time.
As for the defense we have built it like you said “The defense is only a few pass rushers away from being solid.” I think the next off season will feature the team trying to build up the front seven to be a monster, much like the Steelers. I wouldn’t be surprised if we took a hybrid OLB/DE with our first pick next year, like a Jerry Hughes from TCU or George Selvie from South Florida .
OLB in the Draft...
I agree that they will likely go pass rush in 1st round. That will give them Davis, C. Brown, L. Robinson (who I like), and then the draftee. Gets them young quick. What about the OL. If play action blocker then L. Brown is OK but Gandy isn’t and needs a change. Is this a FA?
MBN
If we go OLB in Draft then....
I would think we go OL in FA. It all depends on how good the FA pool will be for an offensive tackle and if next year is an uncapped year. If there really isn’t anyone in the FA pool that looks good to sign than we could probably find a decent OT in the 2nd round of the draft, which might be the route we go anyways.
Don’t forget about Brandon Keith either, the coaches really like him and might give him a shot at replacing Gandy.
The Franchise Direction
I want to take this oppurtunity to address some of the questions by MBN.
1. I think Whiz/Grimm want to become a power running team.
2. By drafting Wells the organization/Graves has told us what THEY think of Tim Hightower
3. Their are conflicting vision/signals being sent to the fan base.
4. In a power run base offense you do not need two WR’s who are capable of being
dominate. One great, the others serviceable. Boldin would be out.
5. Yes, an increasing priority must be place on finding players that can play the 5
technique stoutly if Davis is to remain in the 34 base defense.
6. LB’s that are diciplined and stout at the point have to be found also. Yes, pass-rush
skill is also a requirement. One may be on the roster.
7. I really like Dansby as a player. Dansby wants to be paid as
one of the top two LB’s in the game …… I’m not sure his production matches his
salary. I wouldn’t pull my hair out if he moved on.
8. I need a couple more weeks before I give an opinion on where this is all going.
Dansby is vital! We need him...
Who would win in a fight, Whisenhunt or a Hurricane?
Hold on, hold on, what if the Hurricanes name was Whisenhunt?
Daaaaaaaaaa Cards, Da Cards Da Cards Da Cards Da Cards!!!
I pretty much agree with all of that, expect #2
I think Beanie was the ‘value’ pick at 31 and they had very little depth at RB. If one of the top OL prospects or Pettigrew were still on the board, it might have been different but given how the first round played out, I think the Beanie pick had more to do with value than Hightower’s potential. Other than that though I completely agree.
Be careful....to a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Perhaps I gave the wrong impression
66’ perhaps there is a bit of flawed logic in my thinking as it relates to Dansby’s value, leadership and overall contribution to this organization’s success. He is our best LB and if we upgrade around him the LB corps would be much improved. If, he left there would be a HUGE downgrade/drop-off. I want Dansby to remain a Cardinal just not as a franchise player every year.
Bezekira, I think you make an excellent point also, now that I have more time to think on it. First, it is sort of public knowledge that Donald Brown was the target of Whiz/Graves and not Wells. Second, I do believe that Wells was the best value on almost all the draft boards at that point in the draft. So, yes I stand corrected. It’s just that a lot great backs have gone later in the draft and went on to have oustanding careers.
That said, I think Wells, at his best, has the potential to be the best feature back of the 09 draft. He has the attributes and characteristics that translate and tells me that he could be the best back since OJ Anderson was in Cardinal red. Wells has huge up-side. So yes, football 101 was practiced properly by Graves and Whiz. And that simply states…… you draft the best player on the board regardless of position.
all very fair questions
On offense, I pretty much agree with the conflict in schemes. Whiz wants to be a balanced team and I think he’s moving towards that but right now this is still a offensive unit that is much better equipped to air it out as opposed to running 50% of the time. One thing I do disagree with though is that the offensive line is built to run the ball. I’m not sure this unit is built to do anything. They’re average, at best, and I hope this off season we see some shake up along this front five. If that means throwing Brandon Keith or Herman Johnson in the mix, so be it. If that means using another first round pick on an OT, so be it. Either way, Mike Gandy and Levi Brown simply can not be the starting offensive tackles next year. Obviously the “continuity” theory isn’t working. Maybe it time to use a “talent” theory instead.
On defense, I think we’re farther away than most think. We do need pass rushers and we probably need more than one. Okeafor, Haggans and Berry at the very least shouldn’t be starters next year and hopefully at least two of those won’t even be on the team anymore. I also think we’re still lacking something in the secondary. DRC and McFadden have both been disappointing so far but hopefully they’ll turn it around but the biggest problem, in my mind, is at safety. On passing downs our safeties are horrible. We need a true centerfield safety we can make up for DRC’s and McFadden’s lapses in coverage at times and Rashad Johnson simply isn’t there yet. The bad thing is that I don’t think this is something that can be fixed anytime soon. It’s simply a matter of letting guys like DRC and RJ continue to grow as professionals and get more consistent.
In the mean time, I think we’re a team with an incredibly small margin for error. If we get up on an opponent and things are going well, we can beat any team in the league. But when one thing goes wrong, things can fall apart very quickly and we can lose to any team in the league. While this may sound like a very pessimistic view, I don’t think it’s that much different that what we’ve been saying. The Cards aren’t elite but if they get on a run, 10-6 or 9-7 is still an achievable record and another NFC West title isn’t out of reach.
Be careful....to a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Maybe moving Levi Brown is the answer.
I wonder how he would do as a blocker as a guard rather than a tackle. Do you think he would be better as a guard or do you think he just isn’t a starter period?
I'd try him at guard
He can’t be worse that he is at OT.
Be careful....to a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
9-7
I have always had them finishing the season at 9-7, and after 4 games I had them at 2-2 so a win over Houston gets them where I thought they would be.
The problem with the draft of OT is I don’t see a tackle in the draft who could come in and have an instant impact. With ILB, OLB, OL all being an off season priority, they are going to have to find a starter or two through FA. On the up side, it looks like we might have a good punter:-)
MBN
Who Are The Cardinals?
They’’re more athletically talented than most NFL teams, but equally as inconsistent and mistake-prone.
They also tend to rattle easily, lose their poise and find it hard to rebound from adverse game conditions.
The team needs to become mentally tougher
In keeping with the Bill Parcell “they are who they are” philosophy, the Cardinals are an up and down 1 & 2 team that will need luck and weakness from within their division to break the .500 barrier and make it to the playoffs.
That plus becoming more sound and consistently playing up to their athletic ability.
GBR
by jeffgollin@aol.com on Sep 30, 2009 10:30 AM MDT reply actions
We are not who we thought we would be
Lets begin with the coaching. Haley was under-rated. I’ll leave at that. This is a offense in transition. I think that there is a battle taking place with respect to what kind of team Whisenhunt wants put on the field. This team as it is currently constructed is most effective as an 11 base personell offense (3 WR 1TE 1RB). Our HC/OC and RGC/OL Coach come from the Don Coryell/Joe Gibbs coaching tree.That philosiphy dictates that you establish a power running game and then pass of the play action.
If, that offense is to be installed and be effective then Wells has to be the guy and not Hightower. Hightower is not a feature RB in this league. Wells can be special. Wells has the talent to dictate 8 in the box and single high safety. He just can’t do it from the bench.
Warner is not playing well consistently, primarily because of protection issues. Brown and Gandy are not starting OT’s in this league but they are the best we have.( Not a good decision to wait late in the draft to address the OL). The coaching staff needs to tighten the formations to help with the protection of Warner. Given his advanced age, Warner is not as effective with bodies around him, when the pocket is “muddied”. Tightening the formations would help tremendously.
A consistent pass-rushing 5 tecnique is needed to compliment Dockett. The LB Corps has been average. Dansby whlie a playmaker is miscast as an inside backer.
He is more finesse than power and lacks the ability to engage, shed, stack and blow up the ballcarrier the way prototypical inside LB’s do. Gerald Hayes is a thumper but Hayes makes too many takles 5 yards on his side of the line of scrimmage.Other LB’s not worth mentioning base on the way they have played.
DRC has all-world talent, what he lacks is maturity and consistency of concentration. I hear also that he has trouble grasping sceam concepts. He seems to be regressing. Is this a coaching issue or a player not taking to coaching?
McFadden has look average too. I do like his run support though.
Both safeties have been out of position way too much. I expect this from Rolle from time to time (still learning) but not Wilson. Too many blown coverages.
I don’t see all these “issues” be fixed anytime soon.
makes me look optimistic
I kind of agree with all of this. The only thing I’d argue about is Wells. If a guy doesn’t know the offense, nor can he hang onto the ball, that’s not a guy I’m rushing to get into the starting lineup. While Wells might be a stud, it doesn’t seem that he’s ready.
I have often wondered about Dansby on the outside in a 3-4, still think he would be the best OLB on the roster.
Am curious about replacing either Gandy or Brown and kicking them inside. Potential for improvement out of the o. line as a “quick” fix.
Agreed
I would like to see Brown maybe moved into Lutui’s spot and try Brandon Keith out at the RT. Coaches raved about how good Keith looked in training camp and I wonder how well he would do as a full time starter. Maybe if this fixes the right side, give Gandy some help over on the left side with a TE. I think this would give Warner enough time to find an open receiver instead of running for his life or getting taken down on ever play.
Don't mean to be pessimistic
If, Wells is not grasping the playbook then 75 you would have a very valid point as to why Beanie’s on the bench. Micheals did say on the NBC broadcast that the coaches didn’t trust Wells. Wells would have to demonstrate blitz pick-up recongnition and execution. Given the hits that Warner has taken this would have to be critical as to whether Whisenhunt will let Wells on the field . I wish Wells would get it together. We need him.
Dansby’s range and athletic ability could be used better on the outside (weak side or open side). He is the best pass rushing LB on the roster right now. We already know he is the best cover LB, notwithstanding the Colts game.
Pyromnc , I agree we do need to shuffle the line in some way, shape or form. What is occuring now is not acceptable . More 6/7 man protection fronts along with 3 to 5 steps drops from Warner would help the OL and Warner. Gandy does not look like a player that has a lot of juice left in the tank.
Mark this day down on the calendar.
I agreed with EVERYTHING 81 said. Its like he’s a different person or something.
Life's too short. Be a fan. Orlando Magic, Arizona Cardinals,Tampa Bay Rays and of course "the U"! What a winning combo.
by hevchv on Sep 30, 2009 10:03 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
I appreciate it brother
The tastes and smell of winning last year was/is intoxicating . We need all hands on deck pulling in the same direction. Just trying to give good football analysis without the other stuff .
Great analysis CF81
I’m with you 100%. I really think Mr. Gandy is going to have to go very soon, or they’re going to have to put a TE with him for the rest of the year.
There was one terrible hit on Warner where a defender ran right by Lutui and he just turned around and watched Warner get hit. It was terrible. I was thinking of adding a WTF moment in the Gamebreaker segment this week.
Section 102, Row 18
I am going to re-watch the game tapes
Be careful CF08, kids could be reading these threads. We do have an obligation here at the RotB. Easy, easy now. Agree, Grimm could go with Becht on Gandy’s side to protect Warner’s blind side more effectively.
Hopefully, Whisenhunt is reading these threads( LOL ) and seeing the same things we are seeing.
But seriously, the three most important position on the offensive line are, in order, left tackle, center and right tackle. Both the tackle positions are where we are the weakest, below average. Center average. Lutui is average. I do like our OG Wells. He does play to his talent level and above almost all the time IMO.
Grimm was a HOF player and is an outstanding Coach. However, the collective cohension, guile, the griittiness, the consistent play to the whistle effort is not there. Grimm is really going to have earn his pay with this group this year.
If, Grimm doesn’t get this thing turn around it will affect Warner. Warner will begin to perceive pressure (anticipate getting hit) and see color (the other teams jerseys)…… the results would be offensive breakdowns all over the place with more three and outs. Don’t mean to be Grim. Pun, intended.
Is it possible to put an Offensive line
Behind our offensive line?
by badmatty53 on Oct 2, 2009 12:06 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Can't put all the blame on the 0-line
Kurt does have a history of slow starts. And a few ‘epic fail’ seasons (see Giants 2004). Don’t get me wrong, we need him throwing darts and playing well, and I want to see him succeed as much as anyone. But if he can’t move around a little bit and throw the ball accurately, its not all on the 0-line. If defenses know he cant move they know where to apply the pressure, its that simple.
I have yet to see anyone call out Warner on his inconsistent and crappy play
Coaching has dropped the ball
If things aren’t going according to plan on the field. It is there job and responsibility to make the appropriate adjustments to the game to counter and or circumvent the oppositions mode of attach. THAT IS THEIR JOB!
This team has all of the weapons you could possibly want and Boldin, you them correctly and we will be successful. I have no experience and no very little compared to a lot of people and it’s obvious to me they haven’t been doing that.
Whis may have some idea of what he wants this team to be, but instead of trying to force a square peg into a round hole can you PLEASE just have Warner throw the ball up deep in the general direction of Fitz so they can build the type of enthusiasm this team lives or dies by.
and this is where a knowledge of your personnel needs to be exerted. Adjust to what you have, don’t force things on players that don’t have the ability to perform. Put them in a position to succeed.
Coaching is critical
The truly outstanding coaches that have sustain success and longjevity in this league are ABLE to design and install a system to suit the personell that they have at there disposal as badmatty53 and 75 are pointing out.
Bum Phillips was quoted saying back in the day about Don Shula " He can take yoursi’n and beat his’n and then take his’n and beat yours’n". We know that Shula is a HOF Coach and the reason is stated above.
This bye-week will go a long way towards telling us as a fan base if this coaching staff is ready to take the next step in thier evolution and evovle into the staff we think they are capable of being. We need to to be supportive, patient and see were this thing is going over the next two to three weeks.
A lot of changes have been made to the staff. Maybe, they needed some time to jell as a staff WHEN live bullets are flying.
is this a cut and paste
because it’s the same thing you’ve said over and over, we get it.
It’s difficult for any QB to be successful when there’s no running game and he’s been sacked or pressured every throw.
I said it twice
I know kurt has his own fan base
It almost off limits to criticize him … but he needs it badly
Some of the problem is Kurt but I don’t think he is as big of the problem as you think he is. Warner can be good if his head is into the game. What I mean by this is that Warner almost seemed like he thought he was gonna get hit so he would get rid of the ball too soon. This is something Chris Collinsworth brought up in the game also. This is something that I have noticed with Warner. When he doesn’t trust something on offense he seems to fall apart. When he has complete trust in the offense, he is as good as they come.
play calling has been bad
And whiz isn’t gameplanning to take advantage of matchups
ANd my point wasn’t that its ‘all’ kurts fault … it was that when he plays poorly fans blame everyone but him … and if kurt can’t move around a little bit, all the sacs can’t be blamed on the 0-line
Yes, we need him to get it together, and when hes on, he makes very good decisions and hes a very accurate passer
Can't blame Warner for being slow.
We knew we were getting a QB that was slow when we signed him a few years back. We knew we were getting a slow QB when we signed him to that 20 million dollar deal last year. We knew what we were getting with Warner and should have adjusted the line or prepared the line to protect for him like they should be.
I agree Warner deserves some blame, some poor decisions on his part in the two losses but I still think the biggest blame goes towards the line.
I got ya ..
but I don’t understand your logic, and yes the 0-line needs to play better … but, in my book, you have a strange memory
As I remember, we signed Kurt as a backup, and he was the Backup at the beginning of the year last year … the hope (by the coaching staff) was that he would mentor Matt, but Kurt came here to beat out Matt and take the job. Matt kept making costly mistakes, Kurt was bad at first but wasn’t making as many costly mistakes, and won the job almost by default. And Kurt played well late in the season (at home), and the playoff run was epic.
He also had hip surgery in the offseason, and wanted more money and an extra year on his contract. Needless to say hes noticeably lost another step.
But I digress,
We need Kurt to run this team, and he is undoubtedly the right guy for the job. I just wish he wasn’t such a headcase with his loyal fan base of happy-go-lucky jesus freaks. Because he and his fan base love blame everyone else.
call me a realist, but all I do is pay attention.
Never said we signed Warner to be a starter. I said “We knew we were getting a QB that was slow when we signed him a few years back.” Where in there does that say we signed him to be a starter?
Your saying no one blames Warner. There has been plenty of fans blaming Warner just not to the extent you are. Your making it sound like it’s all his fault and the line has nothing to do with it. Obviously your not paying attention.
lol
easy sparky
you’re much to easy to rattle, and I’m too busy being a carebear
/yawn
you have anything else to add, or can we just agree to disagree?
CF81 is on a serious roll
I couldn’t agree more.
Be careful....to a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Cardinals are the NFC Champions
I think there are issues to shore up and questions to answer regarding the Cardinals, but I wouldn’t say they have an identity crisis. They are still an explosive offense, as they have been for the last few years. The defense is going to give up yards, but they have playmakers and need guys like Adrian Wilson, DRC, and Dockett to come up big. The problem is, the Cardinals identity hasn’t been successful two of the first three games. Warner made crucial red-zone mistakes and DRC was burned twice against the Colts. Those let downs are uncharacteristic of those players, though. It would be foolish to go back to the drawing board and redifine the Cardinals. Sure, they have work to do during their bye week, but it won’t involve developing an identity. It’ll be limiting the mistakes and holding talented players accountable to making plays.
Welcome to ROTB
Agreed, I think it is a little early to really be changing what was so successful to us last year. We just need to work on being more consistent and work on not making mistakes like the turnovers in the redzone. I think we can continue to be successful while building our team for the future when Leinart or whom ever takes over when Warner is gone, guessing it’ll be Leinart though.
every championship team
will tell you the first thing you need to do in training camp is forget about last year, because it means nothing THIS year. Every team has to recreate itself with a new image. I think the fact that we’re still referring to last years team IS the problem.
If you ask me we all need to forget about last year, forget about everything, and get back to playing football … too many guys are worried about getting time on sportscenter
What are you talking about
Please give it a rest quid pro quo. Warner is not the problem. Here is the issue. Warner has been the equivalent of a human pinata. There is axiom that is used in boxing that says…..everybody has a game plan until they get hit. NO ONE likes to get HIT. QB’s included. Warner COULD become a problem is he continues to be abused the way he has been behind our porous OL.
If the game planning and play calling improve and I have every confidence that it will—— then Warner will play better. All QB’s are ordinary when face with heavy and consistent pass-rush pressure.
Not making excuses for Warner. Just looking at the situation with balance and objectivity.
You should try it sometimes. It feels pretty damn good.
not sure ..
what this had to do with my post about forgetting about last year
But I do think Kurt is the same headcase he’s always been, and I am being objective. God will not smite you down if you get honest about Kurt. He was awful in the two losses, and we need him to play better.
Honestly, I hate arguing with fans that have ‘rose-colored-glasses’ because it senseless
I do agree that we haven’t done any gameplanning this year, which is bizarre to me … And whiz needs to start creating matchup advantages for us, instead of assuming no one can matchup to us
btw
cardsfan81 … I was agreeing with your post ‘We are not who we thought we would be’ but adding that it isn’t all on the 0-line … not everyone is against you … so look in the mirror before you point fingers, lol
The teams failures have been the teams failures
And everyone on the field has made mistakes leading up to the failures. Fitz even dropped a ball I thought he should have hung onto. The fact of the matter is, and I think everyones point, is that Warner is no less mobile now than he was last year or the other two years he went to SBs. If the coaching staff would effectively foresee our weaknesses and strengths and game plan with them in mind, then everyone to include Warner and the team as a whole wouldn’t have as many failures.
you think so ... ?
/shrug
I think he’s a (another) step slower after the hip surgery … or maybe he’s still recovering from the surgery a bit, idk … a slow Warner is still better than Leinart, game plan to protect him or not
But something is off, he’s had trouble with accuracy and velocity on his passes too
we’ll see how they practice and play after the bye, if the Defense doesn’t also play better it wont matter anyway
by quid pro quo on Oct 5, 2009 12:33 PM MDT up reply actions
The biggest issue is the O-Line
Everything else is insignificant compared to the horrid blocking they have provided against the 49ers and Colts.
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