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Arizona Cardinals Question Of The Day: Should The Defense Switch To The 4-3?

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This question was proposed recently in a game thread in reference to the Cardinals porous defensive output against the San Diego Chargers this past Sunday. They were pummeled 41-10. The defense could not force a stop. The offense couldn't score. 

With an idea tossed out in the open, people will often run with it or dismiss it. Let's be real, switching to a new defensive scheme mid-season is preposterous. The side affects are often negative. Changing what the defense is used to and asking the players to learn a new playbook takes time and development, something neither they nor the organization has right now. 

If I asked you anyway, would you consider it? Is it that far-fetched? The Cardinals defense ranks bottom five in just about every major category so far this season. Opposing teams have been able to pass and run freely against them. The Cardinals haven't forced many turnovers and haven't added sacks either. Should trends continue, we could be in for a long season -- meaning what do we have to lose?

The personnel that the Cardinals already have on defense have previous experience with the 4-3. The problem, is that some players aren't built for both styles. Traditionally, the 4-3 requires two quick defensive ends that can burst off the edges and tee off on opposing quarterbacks. Calais Campbell and Darnell Dockett don't fit that description. Be that as it may, they are talented players that could presumably get the job done one way or another. Defensive tackle isn't as cloudy. The Cardinals have three big-bodied players that can fill in the gaps. Dan Williams hasn't jump-started the season like we had hoped, but Gabe Watson and Bryan Robinson still fit the bill. At linebacker -- assuming Gerald Hayes successfully returns in two weeks -- the defense could make the adjustment. Keeping Hayes in the middle works due to his run-stopping capabilities and also his leadership. I'd slide Daryl Washington into his natural position at outside linebacker, and keep Clark Haggans on the other side. Washington can play the pass with his speed but also serve as an extra body against the run. Haggans still has some gas left in the tank to be used as a blitz'er. Paris Lenon and Joey Porter would become depth and situational players. 

With this move, the Cardinals would justifiably be one dominant pass rusher away from a legitimate 4-3 defense. Then again, this could all be nonsense and wishful thinking. As we all know, a change must be made and I believe we all know who it begins with. Unless that doesn't happen, I'd expect Ken Whisenhunt to make some roster and depth changes soon. What is your take on the presented change?

Poll
Should the Arizona Cardinals switch to the 4-3 defense?
Yes
87 votes
No
81 votes
Maybe next year
72 votes

240 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 34 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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I've given this some thought as well Andrew...

Our talent and depth on the d line is clearly much better than at linebacker, but ultimately we’d still lack that dynamic pass rusher off the edge. I don’t think there is much we could do about that this season. I’d say if our D continues to be this bad we’ll end up drafting pretty early next year, and we can take the best pass rusher on the board. If he’s a traditional DE we have the guys to play 4-3, if he can play OLB we can stick with the 3-4.
(of course, if our line continues to look this bad we may be looking at tackle prospects instead, but that’s another post)

by manphibian on Oct 8, 2010 4:29 PM MDT reply actions  

Agree

Pass rusher is a top priority in next year’s draft.

What? I didn't break it, I was just testing its durability, and then I placed it in the woods becuase it's made out of wood and I just thought he should be with his family.
Revenge of the Birds

by Andrew602 on Oct 8, 2010 4:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

Time outs.

The changes we need to make are in personel on the field. If a defensive player is not executing his job discription responsibilities adequetly, he should sit for a quarter. If he still does not perform, let him sit out a game.
This way he has time to think about his NFL future while other players get a chance to showcase their abilities right in front of him. This should be enough of a wakeup call for any pro, especially if he is high profile like Docket or Wilson.
The big name veterans should have adapted to the defensive scheme by now and it is up to them to perform. The scheme is a known quanity that is designed for, and practiced by the team. With every defensive player (starters, back ups, and practice team) knowing his position responsibilities it is simple to plug in another player that has been practicing that position within that scheme.
Changing the scheme would mean taking everyone off of the same page and retraining them. Not a good idea in mid season.
Player performance should determine playing time, not name recognition. These are professional NFL players. If they do not execute the scheme adequetly, change the player out, do not change the entire scheme that everyone has practiced.
The same should be true of the offense.

by Arizona Retiree on Oct 9, 2010 9:06 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Big piece missing!

It looks as if we do not have a defensive leader on the field. I think we should be shopping for a veteran LB that has a talent in leadership, vocal as well as physical. A LB that walks the same as he talks. A guy that demolishes offensive plays by: tackles, sacks, tiped passes, hurring the QB, stopping the run, etc. A guy that gets his props play after play, all game long. I don’t see one on our Cardinals team. I believe it may be the missing component and the difference between being a playoff team or bottom feeders.

by Arizona Retiree on Oct 9, 2010 11:58 AM MDT up reply actions  

That is what they brought in Joey Porter to be.

Gerald Hayes should be back in two or three weeks. I can’t see them bringing in another LB with Hayes and Schofield in the wings. Anyone that gets cut by another team is not going to be an upgrade. Not even Shawne Merriman. Trading for a LB this close to the deadline would be asking to get shortchanged. It’s going to take the guys on the roster now stepping it up. Except for Wilson against the Rams we haven’t seen that level of play and you’re right, they need it.

by hadrarius on Oct 9, 2010 4:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

Hmmmm

Is he missing in action or just not all that?

by Arizona Retiree on Oct 10, 2010 7:13 AM MDT up reply actions  

Porter

He’s just not getting it done on the field. Not at the level of expectation, which is the level of play you described. But in truth all the guys in the front seven need to start winning more one on one battles or they’re doomed.

by hadrarius on Oct 10, 2010 9:09 AM MDT up reply actions  

Absolutely not...

4-3’s are the defense of yesteryear, if we switch to anything it should be a 46 like baltimore…

by Cardsfan928 on Oct 8, 2010 4:37 PM MDT reply actions  

Definitely a possibility.

What? I didn't break it, I was just testing its durability, and then I placed it in the woods becuase it's made out of wood and I just thought he should be with his family.
Revenge of the Birds

by Andrew602 on Oct 8, 2010 4:44 PM MDT up reply actions  

True...

Well isnt the 46 basically a 3-3 with a hybrid DE/OLB…such as Suggs or Ware?

by Cardsfan928 on Oct 8, 2010 11:10 PM MDT up reply actions  

It's more like a 4-4 with an isolated "rush" end

Let me break it down by d-line first (it’s remarkably convoluted). Three of the linemen are lined up over the center and two guards, and the “rush” end (DE) is isolated against the LT. On the other side is where both of the OLB’s are lined up over the TE and RT. In short, every blocker is accounted for and it isolates your best pass rusher (i.e. – Richard Dent in Chicago). Going back to the weakside is where the ILB and SS line up (hence the 4-4, the SS is now basically a LB – although the alignment can look like a 6-2, you have to see who has their hand on the ground to count the alignment, of course). It can be a great defense if operated properly (as the 85-86 Bears so aptly demonstrated). You can rush any variation imagineable (5, 6, all 8, etc.), and if there is an interior D-lineman that can command a double team (like Hampton in his prime) somebody has a clear shot at the QB (in Chicago’s case it was usually Wilson or Marshall). If you’re picturing it in your head it’s clear why it’s next to impossible run against as well.

Major drawbacks are it only leaves three outside the box (although Ryan used to do some of the damndest things with Singletary out in coverage as well – benefits of having HOF players). The west coast offense, as you can imagine, really negated the advantages it previously had. The ball/routes were too quick for the pressure, and later on all the variations of the spread offense you see now created the same mismatches for the offense as the 46 used to create for the defense. Gary Fencik, in particular, was abused by Miami in their one loss when they isolated him in coverage.

While I can see why it isn’t used much at all anymore, with our personnel I could see it working. Picture C.C. in Dent’s role; 9-0, Big Dan, and either Iwebema, Watson or Branch over the interior linemen with Haggans and Porter over the RT and TE. We know Dockett can’t be single blocked and I really doubt that Williams could be either. That would allow a lot of free lanes to the QB. Over on the weakside we could put Daryl Washington next to AW, and have Rhodes playing deep in support of DRC and Toler. Yes, quick routes and multiple receiver formations could create problems but with Washington and Wilson’s athleticism I think they could make it work.

Whatever they do, it goes back to creating favorable match-ups which, to be honest, Davis has sucked at in the last half-season. CC and BRob (and Watson) are too easily single-blocked so there is no reason not to double Dockett. Our OLB’s very seldom win their one-on-one match-ups, and because BRob really isn’t a NT running up the gut against us is much easier than it should be. I don’t think it can be stated enough that Williams needs a bigger role if we’re going to stay with the 3-4. It only has a chance at working if the middle of the field is taken away. They run up the gut, we bring Wilson in the box, and boom, big play over the top while the QB sets up shop waiting for our OLB’s to finally arrive.

by Long Beach on Oct 9, 2010 12:59 AM MDT up reply actions  

well said

thanks for putting some time into that post. I liked what you said. Intriguing..
Totally agree on Williams. We need him to clog the middle and demand the attention of the o line to free up Dockett and Campbell.

by Cardzfan on Oct 9, 2010 6:33 AM MDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the breakdown on the 46

That’s the best explaination I’ve read.

As to a mid season switch to any other sceme, I can’t see it happening. Right now Coach Whiz says the problem is not our sceme, it’s missed assignments. If our guys are missing their assignments after a full camp, preseason and four games, what would happen given a whole new sceme and one week to learn it, or even 12 weeks for that matter.

by Birdman from Mesa on Oct 9, 2010 11:00 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

The 3-4 swings in and out of vogue.
Now it’s more popular than ever, but the NFL loves exotic.
The 4-3 will quickly become that.

by superpsck on Oct 9, 2010 8:33 AM MDT up reply actions  

Maybe...

I don’t know what the hell to do right now.

Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].

I can't stand fair-weather/bandwagon fans, stick with your team(s), throughout the good and the bad. And don't switch to whichever team wins the Super Bowl each year.

by JoeCB1991 on Oct 8, 2010 5:53 PM MDT via mobile reply actions  

As you mentioned

the switch couldn’t realistically occur this year but it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that changes have to be made to our present version of the 3-4. With our current personnel a 4-3 would at least give us a very viable run defense and for all we know it might make Davis a more effective pass rusher since he’d be returning to his college position.

Per some previous posts, I’d still like to see us throw out some 5-2 fronts to free 9-0 up. It’s become too easy with Davis’ reliance on BRob in the middle to take Dockett out of the equation.

by Long Beach on Oct 8, 2010 5:58 PM MDT reply actions  

The current line-up was designed for a 3-4

as already said, its not that easy to do this.
If you want to go back to the 4-3, you do it in the off-season.

The coaching staff made these decisions. They need to make them work, or people need to be held accountable for those decisions!

by Cardzfan on Oct 8, 2010 8:20 PM MDT reply actions  

Stay

It’s not like 3-4 has historically been unplayable, so the problem lies in coaching for the players, which basically means coaching. Switching wouldn’t do anything.

by KholdStare88 on Oct 8, 2010 8:21 PM MDT reply actions  

The 3-4 is unique in that the personnel absolutely has to match the scheme

Granted, that kind of goes for everything but it’s especially so in this defense. I don’t think there was a bigger proponent of this “D” than Parcells and even he warned that w/o the right personnel it can’t work. Remember how he took Jason Ferguson with him on his last three stops (Jets, Cowboys, Dolphins)?

by Long Beach on Oct 9, 2010 1:12 AM MDT up reply actions  

So basically we need to change everything about the current Cards and that'll make us good ey?

It’s early stop calling for the heads of the HC Billy Russ etc. and show some patience as we’re only 4 games in… but I’m sure you know better.

by az78true on Oct 8, 2010 9:20 PM MDT reply actions  

I am sure Bill Davis is far from perfect but

the players are the ones on the field getting shredded.

i.e., I don’t think scheme is the biggest issue. the biggest issue is the defense has at times looked down right pathetic. only if Davis made a bunch of bad defensive calls, great play by the players could erase some of that.

and the Cardinals defenders have said as much. people are out of position trying to make a play so much that they aren’t playing their gaps etc.

I expect the best game of the year for both sides of the ball this Sunday.

btw are they wearing all black?

http://www.reverbnation.com/chrisfarmer

by Undrafteds on Oct 8, 2010 10:15 PM MDT reply actions  

It's true that we are getting shredded but a scheme that doesn't match the talent is a major cause for concern

Picture a basketball team with a 6-9 center deciding to play Shaq up in the post one-on-one all game long and settling in to a half court offense. Yes, it would be the 6-9 guy getting dunked on all game but at some point to give him a chance you’ve to make Shaq sprint, pass out of a double-team, etc. I don’t mind the 3-4 but I can’t say it enough, if we’re going to use it we’ve got to get Williams more involved. It’s not our only problem but until we can take something from the offense it’s like shooting fish in a barrel.

by Long Beach on Oct 9, 2010 1:18 AM MDT up reply actions  

oops

meant to say

“even if…” instead of “only if Davis made…”

http://www.reverbnation.com/chrisfarmer

by Undrafteds on Oct 8, 2010 10:16 PM MDT reply actions  

Watch the latest video on AZcards with Whiz

I am beginning to wonder (or really hoping) that our D is beating it’s self trying to make plays and instead making mistakes such as over pursuing, making risky decisions jumping routes, etc.

by Jesse Reynolds on Oct 8, 2010 10:45 PM MDT reply actions  

Defense Sucks

They need to do something…Everything sucks,run D,pass D,offense…Hopefully Max Hallcan change the offense but not this week…Anderson is pathetic.But that does nothing for the Defense,They have given up 208 points in the last 6 games…

by Jon d k on Oct 9, 2010 7:41 AM MDT reply actions  

the defense needs a purpose

If the offense is able to score, then the defense has something to protect. Otherwise, why are they out there getting pounded, if there is nothing to protect? They have no real purpose except personal survival. They are trying to stay healthy and not get injured in a futile exercise that is doomed to failure. Score some points, and the defense will perform!

by Arizona Retiree on Oct 9, 2010 1:42 PM MDT reply actions  

That's a bogus arguement.

The purpose of the defense is to prevent the opponent from scoring. With a dominant defense a team will still win with a low scoring offense. This has been proven time and again. If our defense is co-dependent and needs the offense to put up 30 points a game to keep them motivated then they have serious issues inside their heads.

by hadrarius on Oct 9, 2010 4:35 PM MDT up reply actions  

Agreed, no defense at any level is going to give up just because the offense isn't scoring

However, had he modified his comment to say that it puts a lot of pressure on a defense when the offense isn’t putting points on the board his post would have made some sense. Another point he could have made is that the defense has a better chance if the other team is playing from behind because it can make them more one-dimensional, etc.

But to suggest that any professional, much less guys like 9-0 and AW, are only out there trying to avoid getting injured shows a complete lack of understanding about the mindset these guys have or the passion they play the game with. In spite of what they claim, I swear half the people who show up here to complain about the Cardinals when they lose are either just now watching football for the first time or get their info from a guy like Bickley.

by Long Beach on Oct 10, 2010 12:45 AM MDT up reply actions  

What did they say?

Sometimes a defense will lay down to make a statement. Same with an offensive line.

by Arizona Retiree on Oct 10, 2010 7:18 AM MDT up reply actions  

we run more like a 5-2 anyway

Bill davis always blitz the outside backers like 90 percent of the time I say run a 4-2-5 and put 90 dan williams CC and kenny out there then washington and lenon in the linebacker setting bring ADub down in the box let kerry play center field DRC and Toler in man and have rashad johnson cover the TE

The Devil Birds just got cha

by DaCards on Oct 10, 2010 10:15 AM MDT via mobile reply actions  

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