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Is Whiz a Good Talent Evaluator?

Ok so like many of you guys I'd assume, my shift has focused from this season to next April's draft and beyond. While I'm still watching the games, I'm much more concerned with trying to figure out which guys deserve to come back next year and which one need to be replaced via either free agency or the draft, then I am the actual outcome of the game. With that being said I was having a conversation with a guy the other day who had lost all faith in Whiz and his primary argument was that Whiz simply isn't a good talent evaluator. While I didn't really agree with him, his point definitely got me thinking. His main point was "how is this team better than the team he inherited back in 2007?"

He's certainly had time to make this "his team" and a quick look at the depth chart certainly proves that he's getting these results with "his guys." The only holdover starters from the Dennis Green era are Fitz, Duece Lutui, Gerald Hayes, Dockett and Adrian Wilson or in other words only five of 22 starters.

Of course we all know Whiz has had more success here than anyone ever before so it still feels foolish to question his success but my buddies point was that KW was the reason for that success and Whiz inherited KW so at least part of that success is still attributle to Denny. While that's a point I'm sure we could all cuss and discuss in length, my point of this fanpost is instead of look at where this team stands today compared to how he inherited it in early 2007. Have his drafts been successful? And how does the talent on this squad compare to the talent in 2007?

Star-divide

Drafts: First in an effort to be fair, I'm ignoring this year's class, it's just too early. So over the last three years, Whiz has certainly had some hits and misses. He's had some first round success (DRC), some no doubt about it busts (Buster Davis and Cody Brown) and some late round amazing pics (Breaston and LSH). Seven of his 20 pics during those three years have turned into starters for this team and another four or five are valuable backup/role players. That's a pretty good percentage of pics who ended up playing big roles for this team but as we know from watching Cardinals football for a while, simply being a starter doesn't mean they're necessarily good players. Case in point, Levi Brown has started over 50 games for this team but has he really been worth a top 5 pick? I'd venture a guess that most of us would vote NO. If there is one thing that sticks out to me in looking back at the drafts of Whiz and Green, it's that they are remarkably similar. Both coaches had one year where they were really good, but I don't think anyone would argue that Green's 04 class was better than Whiz's 08.. They've both had mediocre starters who hung around and they both had their absolute busts. If there's one thing that separates Whiz from Green, I'd say it's been Whiz's two big early round busts (Buster Davis and Cody Brown). It's really hard to maintain success when you're getting zero production from guys picked so early in the draft.

Overall talent: I realize this is a very relative term but I'll give it a go anyways. On offense I think the talent level is pretty close. Both offensive lines were well below average and both running back corps were hard to judge because of that. Both squads had studs at WR and almost nothing at TE. The biggest difference is at QB and I think we pretty much all could have guessed that. Even if you didn't know KW had a couple amazing seasons still left in his right arm, I think we'd all take a promising looking rookie over the trio we have now. One defense it's even harder to evaluate because we're playing a different scheme now, so I'll take the easy road and look at front seven and secondary. Even though we get next to nothing from our OLB's right now, I still think I'd take our front seven over Denny's last squad. Secondary is closer in my mind but with so much young talent who we think is on the way up (DRC, Toler, RJ), I'll give the nod again to Whiz's squad.

 

Well I didn't really intend on this becoming a Whiz vs. Green debate. It was more about simply seeing if Whiz had built a more talented 53 man roster than he inherited, so try to ignore all of the Whiz vs. Green comparisons. Overall though, after looking at everything, I don't think this roster is all that much more talented and I'm not sure what that says about Whiz. Does he simply get more out of his players? Did he simply get lucky that old Grey Beard had a couple magical seasons in him or is it something else entirely? And if Whiz isn't a good talent evaluator, is he strong enough in other areas to overcome it? Would take this roster over the squad that played the 2006 season?

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Revenge of the Birds' (ROTB) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of ROTB's editors.

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Whiz is O.K., but..

He’s not a great talent evaluator. In fact, when you factor in his Free Agent pickups, he may be below average.

Seriously, if you knew Matt Leinart was getting the axe (which in hindsight everyone knew that he disliked him and he practically couldn’t wait to cut him), he sould have been looking for QB help after Kurt Warner announced his retirement. Whiz shouldn’t have waited months to make a move on Derek Anderson (of all people), he should have begun the process of replacing Warner, immediately.

Whiz’s busts have been inexcusable! He seems to think that he can take these undersized players, who have “moxie”, and use them in today’s NFL. Buster Daviscand Cody Brown were reaches in the Draft and have hurt the franchise. I don’t know where to place the blame, but two SECOND ROUND busts are two starters who are not on the team. Add Max Hall’s spot as our 2010 backup and there are three spots with players of lesser talent (or in Max Hall’s case, NO talent) on the roster.

And let’s not forget Darren McFadden’s heralded coverage skills from the Steelers…and Joey Porter’s unstoppable motor…and Derek Anderson’s Pro Bowl resume’…and that Anquan Boldin could be easily replaced…and that Bill Davis was a better Defensive Coordinator than Clancy Pendergast…and that he didn’t need an Offensive Coordinator…and that the defense should play a 3-4…

Where do I stop???

by Eric M on Dec 10, 2010 12:32 PM MST reply actions  

Know your facts

After reading the article JoeCB posted about Whiz trying to sign Bulger it seems very apparent to me that Whiz knew ML wasn’t the guy long before the season started. It seems it was the FO that wanted to hang on to ML, not Whiz. Whiz even offered him a role as a backup.
Second, are we the only team to have busts? I would say a resounding no. Are we a team that has gotten more out of it’s lower picks than most the teams in the league? I would say a resounding yes.
I would agree on Whiz’s FA choices, so far other than this year, they have all been bad. Levi Brown was a bad pick but at the time he looked like a stud coming out of college and seemed to be our answer at LT. I loved the pick at the time. But hindsight is 20-20, just ask Captain Hindsight (southpark reference for you old guys).
Whiz and the FO (which had more responsibility in this QB debacle than I knew) screwed up the QB situation. Outside of that I think he has improved the team in several areas.

by Jesse Reynolds on Dec 10, 2010 3:49 PM MST up reply actions  

what FACTS ?

none of that was a ‘fact’ … it was already a rumour ‘whispered’ to someone

probably, the whisperer was whisenhunt, trying to cover his butt

KW could not evaluate talent to save his Azt … Herman Johnson in CHI (there is a multiple pro-bowler in a year or 2)… this gimlet eyed idjit is ruining our team …

by scsa69 on Dec 10, 2010 10:28 PM MST up reply actions  

I like how after one bad season

You start hating on Coach Whiz.

Where were you when he took us to the Superbowl? Where were you after that legendary game against the Packers? Where were you all those times when he was doing a great job?

Coach Whiz is one of the best things to happen to the Cardinals. If the Patriots went through one bad year, would they fire Bill Belichick? No, they wouldn’t. You don’t fire a Coach after one bad outing. Now, if this continues next year, then you start looking into other options, but this is Coach Whiz’s team. It’s going to stay that way for years to come.

by Skii on Dec 11, 2010 10:56 AM MST up reply actions  

Bill Belichick

took the Patriots to multiple Super Bowls and WON multiple Super Bowls. Not the best analogy. I’d say he’s more like Lovie Smith so far

by cardsfanforlife24 on Dec 11, 2010 9:26 PM MST up reply actions  

You do realize

That every NFL Coach picks up a few busts every now and then? It’s not like Coach Whiz has only picked up busts.

Let’s look at his 2nd Round picking this year. Daryll Washington. The rookie we all love. Who picked him? Coach Whiz and his staff. Reading reports from the Cardinals, Dan Williams is impressing his coaches and teammates greatly (Especially Darnell Dockett). Andre Roberts has matured into a pretty good WR and has settled down when it comes to Punt Returning. The rest, we don’t really know yet.

So don’t just list the bad. Coach Whiz has had some greats too.

by Skii on Dec 11, 2010 10:53 AM MST up reply actions  

Buster Davis

was a 3rd round pick. That doesn’t justify it at all, just sayin

by cardsfanforlife24 on Dec 11, 2010 9:23 PM MST up reply actions  

Darren McFadden's coverage skills?

I think you meant Bryant McFadden. Who is starting this year at left cornerback on the Steelers defense. Which in my opinion means he actually does have good cover skills and just proves we have had subpar DC’s and still need to find a good one. Now, while Whiz makes mistakes he at least acknowledges them and tries to correct them. Also, had Matt Leinart not gone off to the media during the preseason he probably would have stayed on the roster and started when Derek Anderson began faltering. Should Whisenhunt have released him so quickly? No, but like it’s been mentioned, Whisenhunt didn’t like him.

by Handsome Bert on Dec 12, 2010 3:46 AM MST up reply actions  

McFadden isn't good.

The Ravens vs Steelers game last week exposed how badly he is the weakest link on that defense.

by hadrarius on Dec 12, 2010 10:25 AM MST up reply actions  

If you ever watched McMuffin play

you watched him play horribly. It just so happens with the Steelers that the rest of the defense is so strong it covers for him.

We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!

"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen

by robloosli on Dec 12, 2010 1:04 PM MST up reply actions  

He was the weakest link on our defense too

McFadden had to be cut. $5 million/year was not justified for him. To be nice, he was terrible. It seemed half the stadium was calling for his head last year. Consistently played 10 yards off the receiver on short downs

by cardinalbrown on Dec 14, 2010 12:51 PM MST up reply actions  

He played he exact same way with us as he did/does with the Steelers

The difference is that the Steelers have the number one pass rush in the league nearly every season so QB’s are constantly rushing throws or lobbing ducks in a desperate attempt to get the ball out of their hands. In their defense the corners play six to ten yards off the LOS, read the QB’s eyes and either break on the ball or sit back and make the tackle for minimal game.

In our defense much more was asked/expected of him and he wasn’t up to the task. Nothing more.

by Steamin' Beamin' on Dec 14, 2010 1:55 PM MST up reply actions  

Wasn't A-Dub from before Green took over?

I’d say that Denny is better with the early picks, and Whiz is better with the late round guys.

Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].

I can't stand fair-weather/bandwagon fans, stick with your team(s), throughout the good and the bad. And don't switch to whichever team wins the Super Bowl each year.

by JoeCB1991 on Dec 10, 2010 2:17 PM MST reply actions  

They jury is inconclusive on Cody Brown. He was injured and it was described at the time as a freak injury. He never got a chance develop into an NFL player. I think most of the drafted players fell right about where they were projected to go. Toller and Skelton & Roberts might be the surprise pics, coming from relatively unknown college programs. I was down on Roberts early on, but he seems to be improving, I think Toller will be a star in this league and really don’t have anything to judge Skelton on. I don’t think Anderson was a good move, but with the completely uninspired play from Leinart in the preseason it seemed like a necessary move. I think Wiz overvalued Max Hall. My biggest disappointments were Ali Highsmith and Herman Johnson. I think wiz might be a little blind to ex Steelers. I think Wiz overestimated his own talents as an OC.

I still have full faith in the coach. I think he will be here for many years to come. This was going to be a transition year, it would be impossible to replace a Kurt Warner. I don’t think anyone thought 3-9 but I think this season record is as flukey as an improbable Super Bowl run. Looking around the league I don’t think any problems with our roster are unique to us, evry team has strengths and weaknesses.

13- Warner, 23- Sandberg, 40- Tillman, 11- Walter

by TBru on Dec 10, 2010 10:06 PM MST reply actions   1 recs

why ?

why were you disappointed in Herman ? he was the best lineman here (including all the clowns starting right now) and will soon be going to Pro-bowls … Witlesshunt couldn’t evaluate a pee-wee roster …

by scsa69 on Dec 10, 2010 10:31 PM MST up reply actions  

No one can evaluate a pee wee roster

They all look the same. If you could NFL teams would be scouting them out already.

by Handsome Bert on Dec 12, 2010 3:49 AM MST up reply actions  

I think it's telling

that when B Keith went down, Herman didn’t get moved up from the practice squad. instead we went out and signed some Joe Tackle off the street.

We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!

"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen

by robloosli on Dec 12, 2010 1:06 PM MST up reply actions  

One thing about our fifth rounders...

We seem to get gems from the fifth, Like Breaston and Hightower…guess who else came from the fifth? John Skelton…I think we need to burn our first with another OLB/ILB

by Cardsfan928 on Dec 10, 2010 10:19 PM MST reply actions  

If you're going linebacker in the first

then you get a pass rusher. We do need to add some more youth in the middle too. ILBs rarely get graded that high though.

by hadrarius on Dec 11, 2010 10:56 AM MST up reply actions  

Oh

as far as quality TE’s go…Dray has looked like the best we’ve had in the Whiz era…Our TE’s are bottom of the barrel

by Cardsfan928 on Dec 10, 2010 10:21 PM MST reply actions  

U want whisenhunt to be fired?

after one bad season? The cards have a terrible o-line, a horrible QB, and the worst secondary and LBs in the league. A-dub is old and washed up, kerry rhodes is a playmaker, but he is a hit or miss type of player, like rolle. DRC has taken a step backwards. Toler has been below average, and our nickel corner is 5’8!!!! With all of these problems, you are blaming the coach???? The coach who lead the CARDINALS to the Super Bowl? This is the CARDINALS we are talking about here!!!! We have been spoiled with great football for 2 years, and it has gone to the fans’ heads. Honestly, who do u think u are? This is the only coach in the last 30 years that has had success as a coach of the cardinals! Get off your high horse and remember where you were 5 years ago, you were the fan of a hopeless team that went 4-12 every year…..If u want to go back to those days, then FIRE WHIZ! If u want to have semi-stability in the franchise, stick with Whiz for a little while longer. Let him try to fix this.

If u do fire him, who will come here? No one. because this is the CARDINALS we r talking about here. We r not the Steelers, Ravens, Cowboys, or any other legit franchise. We dont get a chance to hire the great coaches. Seriously, u fans need to get back in ur place.

by forget on Dec 11, 2010 11:20 PM MST reply actions  

Exactly

The Cardinals haven’t been good for years. You know when the last time we won a Championship was? 1947. That’s 63 years ago. That’s before the Superbowl even existed. So why in the world would we fire the one Coach who’s done us any good?

No Coach is going to come running to us if we fire Coach Whiz. Yeah, maybe after the 2008 or 2009 season, but now? They’re just going to take one look at our history, laugh, and walk away. Coach Whiz is basically one of the few chances we have at winning a Superbowl. Do you want to waste Larry Fitzgerald’s prime years? Do you want to waste away the last years of Adrian Wilson’s and Darnell Dockett’s career? Do you want to go back to being the “Same old Cardinals”? I didn’t think so.

If we fire Coach Whiz, then there’s a 100% chance that Fitz leaves the desert. Next season, I hope Coach Whiz proves all the haters wrong.

by Skii on Dec 11, 2010 11:33 PM MST up reply actions  

fired?

Did you even read what I wrote b/c I certainly didn’t say that Whiz should be fired. But to address your point…….

The cards have a terrible o-line, a horrible QB, and the worst secondary and LBs in the league.
Ok so at least half of the team is “terrible” in your opinion. Who’s job is it to build a talented roster? Whiz has had ample time to add talent to this roster and my question to the group was, has he done a good job of building a talented roster?

by Steamin' Beamin' on Dec 13, 2010 6:26 AM MST up reply actions  

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