SB Nation Arizona Editor's Pick
The Quarterback Position, The 2011 Draft and the Arizona Cardinals.
by khodder on Mar 20, 2011 5:23 PM MDT
Email
PrintIt has been said so many times of late that it has almost become a cliché, but the NFL is a passing league, and it is obvious that a passing league is going to be driven by one position moreso than any other in the NFL, the Quarterback position.
Now more than ever the Quarterback position is driving the top teams in the league, you have a QB you are exponentially more likely to have success, in both the regular and postseasons. Look at the Quarterbacks who have participated in the Superbowl in the past decade.
2010 – Rodgers and Roethlisberger
2009 – Brees and P.Manning
2008 – Roethlisberger and Warner
2007 – E.Manning and Brady
2006 – P.Manning and Grossman
2005 – Roethlisberger and Hasselbeck
2004 – Brady and McNabb
2003 – Brady and Delhomme
2002 – Johnson and Gannon
2001 – Brady and Warner
With three exceptions the winning QB has been among the elite in the NFL at the QB position in each game, the two exceptions, Johnson in 2002, Roethlisberger in 2005 and Eli Manning in 2007 all were playing with one of the leagues best defenses that season and arguably one of the best defensive units ever assembled (2002 Bucs). On the opposing side, there are three examples of non-elite QB’s making it to the game, Delhomme in 03, Hasselbeck in 05 and Grossman in 06. Grossman was aided to the Superbowl by the leagues 2nd best defense. Hasselbeck, despite never being considered an elite QB put up an elite style season with 24 TD’s to 9 INT’s and was backed by the record breaking Shaun Alexander to post the NFL’s highest scoring offense. Delhomme in 2003 is really the only unexplainable, and while he did get 1400 yards from the legs of Stephen Davis he was not backed by a great running game or a great defense, yet they made it to the big game. Really they caught lightning in a bottle, over the course of the season including the playoffs the Panthers played 14 games decided by 7 or less, and they finished 11-3 in those games (Including the Superbowl) it really was a season in isolation as the next year the fell back to 7-9 and 3rd place in their division.
You want to see long term NFL success a Franchise QB like Manning or Rivers is needed.
History has shown, you want to compete in and therefore have a chance to win a SuperBowl the fastest and surest way to get there is an Elite QB. 14 of the last 20 to compete in the game or 70% of them have been deemed elite QB’s. Of the 6 that were not elite and reached the game, 4 of them were backed by a defense that ranked in the top 3 of the NFL in PPG allowed, and one posted a great QB season backed by a record breaking running game.
Now more than ever success in the NFL is reliant on having a Quarterback who is regarded as being among the elite of the league, and in the situation that your QB is not elite, unless you then post one of the best defenses in the NFL, you are out of luck, only 5% of the last ten years SuperBowls participants filled neither of those two criteria.
But it is not only prolonged success in the postseason in terms of SuperBowl appearances and wins, but indeed long term success in the regular season. Among the current crop of NFL’s QB’s we have the likes of Peyton Manning and Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Philip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger, Drew Brees and Matt Ryan all considered as elite or there or thereabouts in their careers as an NFL QB. Combined these QB’s have started the majority of the games in 48 seasons of NFL football. Of those combined 48 seasons of football, teams Quarterbacked by those QB’s have experiences a season with a record of less than .500 just five times, including a 7-8 season from Big Ben in Pittsburgh and a 7-9 season from Brees in New Orleans. Combined over their careers the aforementioned Quarterbacks have accumulated a combined record of 508-246, a .673 winning percentage, they have in their 48 combined seasons been to the playoffs 46 times or 75% of the time and they hold and 8 combined Superbowl rings with 10 appearances.
If you have doubted it in the past, doubt it no more, an elite QB in today’s NFL is the fastest way to a winning season, the playoffs and to the SuperBowl.
But what does this all mean in the context of the Arizona Cardinals and the 2011 draft? Well it is quite simple. The Cardinals are in a position right now to select one of the best QB prospects in the draft. Sitting at the 5th overall selection and currently without a Quarterback that one would describe as "elite" or as a "potential franchise QB" it would see to be the perfect place to start a turnaround for the team, to try and get the team into a situation where winning not only becomes a habit, but a realistic expectation year in and year out. However the 2011 draft is one that poses issues, the first is the strength or lack thereof of the Quarterback position in the draft is an issue that must be taken into account, because we are not talking about taking a great prospect and inserting them for instant results it does take a transition period and it does take a player who can really warm to the task a dedicate the next 10-15 years of their life to a team and a lifestyle conducive to winning. It is a long and slow and drawn out process, but if you as a team feel you have a shot at a legitimate franchise QB in most situations you take the shot.
So sitting at 5th overall what are the options for Arizona in this draft. The obvious is Blaine Gabbert a fast rising Junior from Missouri. He has the look of a franchise QB and he would be a tremendous fit for the spread offense that the Arizona Cardinals have taken a liking to over the past couple of seasons, but he like any QB prospect has his issues, mostly around a transition to taking more and more snaps under center and a reworking of his footwork to be more conducive to taking 5 and 7 step drops from under center.
Cam Newton from Auburn the athletic specimen and Heisman trophy winner is another option, probably a more long term option with the large amount of development that he will need to go through to reach a standard worthy of starting in the NFL, but if the team sees enough in him and enough in their coaching staff he could be an option.
Could Newton or Gabbert be the QB to lead the turnaround in Arizona?
At #5 those are likely the only two to come to mind in the draft, and both are very realistic options with the amount of raw talent in the upper part of the draft, particularly on the defensive side of the ball with Daerus, Fairley, Peterson, Miller, Bowers among others, but also players like AJ Green and Juilo Jones at WR could be on the mind of teams picking very highly in the draft.
Personally the only option I would even consider at #5 would be Blaine Gabbert, but I have no say in any drafting matters.
Other methods of acquiring a Quarterback or any player are the Free Agency route and the trade route. Neither of these is an option I would really pursue if I was in the market for a franchise QB, because rarely if ever does a team put a player who has proven quality at the NFL level on the Market, and trading for a young backup QB is just the same as drafting one, who is likely younger and gives your staff to do all of the molding themselves. Of the 7 QB’s I listed above as Elite, 5 of the 7 were first round picks (Brees was the first pick of the 2nd round) and 6 of the 7 were drafted by their current teams. You need a new signal caller; the first round of the draft is always your first port of call.
So finally what does this mean for outcomes come late April and the NFL Draft? It means that if Arizona has a shot at taking a Blaine Gabbert, I think it is a very good chance that they pass on a defender like a Peterson or a Miller for the Quarterback from Missouri, because this league is driven by the guy throwing the football, and if you don’t have one on your roster that is going to get the job done, week in week out, year in year out, then you are not going to win a whole lot of football games.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Revenge of the Birds' (ROTB) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of ROTB's editors.
294 comments
|
3 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Just for my thoughts, something I did not want to add at the end of the article
Personally, if I am in charge of the Cardinals, I.E I am in Rod Graves position. I draft Von Miller is he is available at #5 overall. I do not sign a veteran QB, I let John Skelton take the reigns of the team. We live or die with Skelton in the 2011 season. If Skelton shows that he is up to the task performs well and the team finishes with a winning record or close, then we use our middle place draft pick to fix the biggest problem area on the team from that season/previous seasons wherever that may be. If John sinks like a lead weight we are then in perfect position to do exactly what the article above says, grab a franchise QB and look to build around them. I see three guys eligible for next years draft (Luck, Barkley and Jones) who are all superior as prospects to Blaine Gabbert, and who would all have a huge impact on the Arizona team from the word go.
It gives a year for our defense to learn and get steady in the Horton system. It allows Skelton a full season to prove or not prove himself at the NFL level, and while it may lead to a certain WR not resigning here, can anyone name me the last Wide Receiver that carried his team through a season and to a SuperBowl title? I love Fitz I really do, but if he is collateral damage on our path to a franchise QB then it is damage that is done with long term success in mind.
by khodder on Mar 19, 2011 11:22 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Agree
Except I would bring in Bulger or someone else and let them both have an open competition for the job.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Only issue there is
If Bulger wins the job we could end up in a situation where we are without a franchise QB, sitting at 7-9, no idea what we have in our young exceptionally physically talented QB, and are likely stuck in the middle of a draft where we have no shot at a franchise QB unless we pull a Ricky Williams/Hershall Walker trade.
Ultimately I think we will sign a vet and possibly draft a rookie, but I would be willing to not admittedly, but essentially take the very large possibility of a bad season, riding a “prospect” of a QB to see what they bring and to get a shot at a Franchise QB,
7-9 could still be enough to get one of those guys you mentioned for next years draft though
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
by JoeCB1991 on Mar 20, 2011 4:14 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
In a trade up scenario
Yes if we trade up, but I don’t forsee any of those guys slipping past 10 at worst, and we also run the risk of only one of them ending up in the draft and being stuck in the middle with a middling draft pick, a team not going anywhere, no idea what we have at the QB position and the potential loss of our best player.
Can you say Minn Vikings!!
Its the same situation the vikes are in now… They need a QB and have no idea whatsoever if they have one on the team and don’t really have a shot at one in this draft!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Give John the reigns and its bye bye Larry next year
Your OK with that?
by Redbird Nation #1 on Mar 20, 2011 5:53 PM MDT up reply actions
If Larry leaving nets us a Franchise QB
Then I am all for him leaving.
1 – Look at the success both in the regular season and the post season that elite QB’s have had.
2 – Since when has a WR ever carried their team to anything? Even one as great as Larry.
Losing Fitz is a PR nitemare and someone will have to take a fall for it, IMO!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Last time a WR carried their team
Larry on our SB run i would say, also if him leaving meant us getting Luck, goodbye larry IMO
I'd rather have Larry than any of the Super-Bowl MVP wide receivers in their prime
At least from the last 10 or 20 years.
I would too
But Wide Receivers are possibly the position that is the most dependant on another positon. RB’s if the are great can still gain yards behind a bad OL. A QB if they are great can still get the ball to inferior WR’s. A WR no matter how good they are relies on the QB to get them the ball in the right place.
There is a reason teams have been able to win numerous Superbowls without any WR of note.
Uh...
It was Kurt Warner that carried the team in the SB run…
Maybe Not...
If John plays great ball and we end up at 9-7 or 10-6 then I doubt we see Larry ever play elsewhere in his career. However taking the risk of Fitz signing elsewhere is a risk I would take in a chance to net a Franchise QB.
I mean it is not like Signing Bulger, Trading for Kolb or Drafting Gabbert is going lead Larry to sign a new deal either.
We need to see what John gives us, we need to improve at the position in the NFL most integral to team success.
+1
John got enough experience under center for us last season to prove whether he can sink or swim…and double plus on the part about Larry…I dont think anybody here at ROTB (including myself) would like to see Larry leave, but an offense has to start with a QB and a Line.
You ask me do do a rerdaft of 2004...
I pass on Fitz and grab Philip Rivers. Rivers to Boldin for 8 years would have been prolific, we would have had a franchise QB, Denny Green might still be our coach, but the entire landscape of this team would have changed.
Eh...
It isn’t like Larry hasnt been worth his draft pick, it’s just that WR’s are a dime a dozen…See Brady’s WR’s from his championship teams…
Another great read...
You are giving the community some great analysis.
Like the Cardinals? Revenge of the Birds is where to go.
Like Arizona Sports in general? SB Nation Arizona is where you'll get it all.
Cant believe you knuckleheads
Let Larry leave? Count me off the season ticket holder list that Ive been on for 8 years.
by Redbird Nation #1 on Mar 20, 2011 5:55 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Not let him leave
Of course you are not going to let him walk, you are still going to aggressively pursue him and attempt to sign the guy to a long term deal, but if he decides to leave then that is his choice, and if we end up with a franchise QB out the back of it then the team is in a better position that before he left.
In other words Khodder
is saying treat Larry as Dansby or Rolle, offer him up the lucrative deal if he bites, excellent. If not we’ll find a suitable replacement. Boldin was my favorite of the two anyways
Not Really
This situation would be different, I mean full court press on Larry, overpay if we have to, but if he wants to leave he is going to leave. If we can get a franchise QB out the other end of Fitz leaving this franchise then the team is in better shape than it was.
Hes repeatedly said he wants to stay in Arizona
but also wants to win. Thats the kind of player I want on my team. Someone who values winning over anything else, including money.
by Redbird Nation #1 on Mar 21, 2011 4:41 PM MDT up reply actions
Well...money is still a biggie
He won’t likely leave money on the table. Not that he would have to.
Like the Cardinals? Revenge of the Birds is where to go.
Like Arizona Sports in general? SB Nation Arizona is where you'll get it all.
I also dig
The Horton system, here’s to us keeping the worst to first trend alive
You've got some good ideas here...
But I tend to believe that good offensive lines create elite QBs, given that the QB has the tools to be elite in the first place. Do you have any analysis of the quality of the lines that the “elite” QBs in the NFL play behind? Some QBs obviously overcome mediocre line play (our line in front of Warner was not outstanding, but I believe it was adequate at that time) but what is the exception, and what is the rule about great QBs and high quality line play? Keep up the good work, all your posts have been great.
Off the top of my head, from games I have seen of late
1 – Our line has sucked for near on a decade, even with Warner under center, he was the most hit QB in the league, that is not only because he was willing to sit in there and take a hit, it was becasue our OL was a seive
2 – Pittsburgh has one of the worst OL’s in the league
3 – New Orleans has two below average Tackles, but an elite interior OL
4- The Chargers RT might have been worse than ours last season, and that says a lot, though the rest of their OL is OK, particularily the guards.
5 – The Colts are in the market for a new LT for a reason, their OL is not good
6 – Falcons have a nice run blocking OL, and two very nice guards, but Sam Baker was horrible at LT
7 – Chad Clifton is well past his best in Green Bay and while they have an elite interior OL (Notice a bit of a trend here)
8 – The Pats are really the only team on here you could say have a really quality OL.
An elite OL can make a solid QB look really good (I.E When the Hawks had the likes of Jone and Hutchinson, Hass looked like an All-Pro, KC last season behind one of the best OL’s in the NFL Matt Cassell had a stellar statistical season) but an elite QB looks elite no matter what kind of OL he has in front of him.
Bascailly you get a QB who is mobile in the pocket and possesses a quick release you can make a really bad OL (Colts in 2010) look like one of the best OL in the league (Colts in 2010)
Interesting points you make here.
I agree about KC and the Seahawks. I guess what I didn’t say before is that while your plan to let Skelton sink or swim definitely has some merit, he will sink behind this line. I still think our line is actually the most pressing need, but our draft position and the available players dictate that an OL pick must come after the first round. Skelton needs time in the pocket if he is going to develop, and he needs a solid ground game to take the heat off of him. Our 2nd round pick should put us in position to get one of the better OLs in this draft.
We have seen what Skelton gives us
It’s not particularly good, not yet. Holding pat at quarterback this year is a terrible idea. We’re not just talking about losing Fitz here. Whisenhunt won’t make another season if his plan appears to be “Do Nothing.”
Under this current leadership, our goal is to field a competitive team every year. We won’t be able to do that without upgrading our quarterback. The only reason we don’t hate Skelton is because his expectations were low and he made fewer mistakes than the others. He still ended the season with a lower QB rating than Anderson.
Skelton belongs in this league, but he doesn’t belong at QB1. Not last year, and probably not this year. We were the worst team in the worst division in the entire history of the league. Do you want to sit through that again? No, and nobody else will, either. Good-bye Fitz, good-bye coach, good-bye every notable unrestricted free agent, good-bye home-game sell-out streak…
It would be insane not to do something about our quarterback position after the season we just went through.
by tw3kr on Mar 20, 2011 7:08 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
The quickest way to fielding a competitive team every season
Draft a franchise Quarterback, are you endorsing Gabbert at 5, if so fine, I think right now it is almost the most likely pick.
It is also insane to try and plug in stop-gap after stop-gap after stop-gap ans sit through season after season of average team winning horrible division and getting bounced early style football too.
If you see a Franchise QB you grab them. If you feel Gabbert could be that guy. Grab him, if you don’t you look at your next option for a Franchise QB, look at the 2012 draft, look at possible options on your current team.
Skleton is physically one of the three of four best QB’s in the NFL, if he strings it together mentally he could be a top quality QB, but we need to give him a season under center to try and prove himself. If he falls flat the owners need to show a little bit of patience and realise what the coaching staff are trying to do. You can only do so much with the players that you are given.
One constant over 70 years of mediocrity in Cardinals football. The ownership. Maybe they need to look in the mirror for the issues that plague this franchise.
We are no better at the end of next season after a 7-9 season with Bulger or Kolb or McNabb starting than we are after a 5-11 season with Skelton starting, in fact I would argue we are worse off, in all situations Fitz is gone, in one you know what you have in a young highly talented QB, in the other we still no nothing about our young QB and are also in no position to add a Franchise QB in a draft that is likely going to be the best QB draft since 2004.
If you endorse Bulger, then another aging FA, then another you are encouraging mediocrity. At some point you have to look at the team and say “This is not going anywhere good” blow it up and rebuild from the ground up. That is close to the situation we are in.
Question
On vet QB’s. How do you feel about Palmer? Do you think if the Cards can acquire him for like a 3rd this year and 2nd next year would you take him?
For that price
Heck no, he has had back to back horror seasons throwing the football, and the knee and arm injuries have really hurt him. Palmer is not the 2006 Palmer, of any vet QB Bulger is probably the best becasue of a solid schematic fit, the quick release and the football experience.
Remember Palmer also comes with the handcuffs of a massive contract extension. I might be willing to part with a 4th or 5th round pick for him, but again, I see him as null more than a stopgap, and we need to have a look at what we have on the roster, we know Hall is not going to do it, ditto Anderson, Skelton still has oodles of untapped potential, we need to see what he has, and rather than going for a stop-gap to buy another season we need to sink of swin with a young QB and if we sink, then rebuild the team around a young drafted QB from the 2012 draft, A Luck, Barkley or Jones.
I’m not sure anyone can argue that Skelton is physically one of the 3 or 4 best QBs in the NFL. If being tall and haveing a strong arm was all it took, DA would be in the HOF.
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
by robloosli on Mar 20, 2011 8:34 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
+1
The dude has great potential, but let’s not get ahead of ourselves here.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
by JoeCB1991 on Mar 20, 2011 9:08 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
His is mentally raw
Mentally he is really behind the eight ball, otherwise he has the tools. Now is he going to grasp the mental aspects of the game. Easist way to find out is to put him into pressure situations and see how he reacts.
He will be one of the most affected by work stoppage
Skelton needs the work with coaches. Without it, he will take step back as teams can scheme for him.
Like the Cardinals? Revenge of the Birds is where to go.
Like Arizona Sports in general? SB Nation Arizona is where you'll get it all.
Most affected and in most need of assistance.
The longer the lockout drags on the more appealing a veteran like Bulger becomes, if just for his ability to grasp the offense more quickly.
We need talent at QB
That’s the bottom line. As you said, this is not going anywhere good, and we need to fix it. Why wait? Because the prospects in next year’s drat look better than what we can grab right now? What will they look like next year? Part of the reason this draft looks like crap at QB is because Locker and Mallett had that extra year to prove that they aren’t as great as everyone thought they were. What will all the “sub-par” prospects in this draft look like next year, with a year of NFL experience under their belt? You suggest we take a gamble so that we can take a gamble.
Signing a stop-gap who can even pretend to be competent will plunk us in to competition for the division title, and give Skelton more time to develop — time which he has proven he both needs and deserves.
by tw3kr on Mar 21, 2011 12:59 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Look
Skelton wasn’t bad, and is raw. There is a reason Whiz went with Hall over Skelton because he needs more time. You can’t put any part of last season on Skelton’s shoulders. This is a kid the wasn’t supposed to play, is a project, and was asked to play because of injuries. Skelton was 2-2 when he started which isn’t bad for the position he was in. If we went 50-50 on the year, we would’ve been in playoffs. the rest of the starters (da and hall) were 3-9…
Yeah his QB rating was at Anderson’s(62.3 and 65), and is bad. But you talking about a 3rd string QB at the time, starting at week 14. Name me a rookie QB that got thrown in that late and did better.
I’m all for starting Skelton and drafting some D.
+1
I’ve been pretty quiet to this point, but I couldn’t have said it better myself.
If you don't have anything good to say about the Cards this season, you'd be correct.
by hevchv on Mar 20, 2011 9:04 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
I completely agree
That doesn’t change our position as it stands: we need to upgrade our QB position. Skelton wasn’t ready to take us to the playoffs, and he still isn’t. It’s not a knock on the guy, it’s just how it is. I like him, and I’m looking forward to seeing what he can do in the future. I just think it’s silly to mortgage the season on a player who we already know isn’t prepared.
by tw3kr on Mar 21, 2011 12:34 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
In Skeltons defense
His passer rating would be much better if there weren’t a ton of catchable balls dropped by the receivers.
There were a few in the Denver game, and Boobs dropped a TD in that Panthers debacle.
His Interception in the 49ers game was also on a pass that was tipped at the line and Komar was wide open in a spot where he probably would have caught it if it wasn’t tipped. I also don’t blame QBs on those kinds of Interceptions.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
by JoeCB1991 on Mar 20, 2011 9:14 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Receivers dropping passes works both ways
I’m almost as big a fan of Skelton as you guys are, I’m just being realistic. At what point did everyone decide that upgrading our QB position this offseason is a bad idea? What happens when Skelton gets broken in half? I refuse to watch another game with Hall or DA starting, and any competent QB we bring in will probably be able to win the starting job from Skelton.
Bradford
Didnt look to hot his first game against us…
Disagree
Skelton, while he showed some skill is not ready (if he will be ready) to be an NFL starter. Bulger or other FA QB gives us time to sit Skelton longer and give him more time to learn the system. Ask Rodgers what sitting did for four years. And again, we do not know if Skelton is even a NFL ready QB.
So when do we see what he has?
Do we let him sit for another season, and miss on arguably the best QB draft since 2004 and then go after a QB in a weaker draft?
We need to look at the probable strength of the 2012 NFL draft in terms of the Quarterbacks who are going to be available and realize that it is going to be the strongest it is going to be for a long time. It is going to be the teams best chance to get a franchise signal caller for a long while. Though all will still be underclassmen, two rsJr’s should come out (Luck and Jones leaving whith a whole host of Oklahoma Seniors headlined by the likes of Broyles and Lewis) and possibly a True Jr in Matt Barkley, though he might opt to stay to try and put in a big bowl performance as a Senior.
John probably would be best off sitting another year, but look past the 2011 season, look to the long term future of this team, and the place where they have the best chance to gain a top player at the position most imperative to long term consistent NFL success. The best place for us to get that would be internally, so we see what Skelton has, the next best option is the Draft and the 2012 draft looks to be well stocked at QB, so that is the draft we should target.
Do we really want to pass on a franchise QB to select a bust two years later again?
Do we really want to give up on a season for the prospects of next season?
I think instilling a winning attitude has as much to do with a team doing well as an elite QB does.
by Jesse Reynolds on Mar 20, 2011 8:46 PM MDT up reply actions
Great point, but...
With the lock out and potentially shortened season, would any rookie QB be better than Skelton who already knows the system? Same could be said for a FA QB coming in late.
If you don't have anything good to say about the Cards this season, you'd be correct.
by hevchv on Mar 20, 2011 9:15 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
No, a rookie won't
I believe a Vet will. Experience will trump the 1 year Skelton has had.
I think Skelton is talented and the cool he showed in Dallas is really intriguing but lets not get ahead of ourselves. If we just ride with Skelton we could be setting ourselves up for for more than a losing season. I think our team needs to be aggressive in acquiring players not only to actually get better but to also show that the FO is committed to improving the team.
by Jesse Reynolds on Mar 20, 2011 9:36 PM MDT up reply actions
Skelton as the unquestioned 2011 QB?
Its a pretty scary thought. I like Skelton but to expect him to develop in one season is more than pushing it. Of the 30 starting QBs in the league right now there are only 7 that were drafted after the third round. Those QBs are Tom Brady (6th round), Ryan Fitzpatrick (7th round), David Garrard (4th round), Kyle Orton (4th round), Matt Cassell (7th round), Tony Romo (undrafted) and John Skelton. How many became good QBs in one season? Brady and Romo, which are anomalies.
Essentially the suggestion is to tank the 2011 season before it even starts so that we are in line to draft one of the top flight prospects of the 2012 draft. That’s not how you play football and its sure not how you keep the fan base happy.
by GivingThemFitz on Mar 20, 2011 10:34 PM MDT up reply actions
The last paragraph nails it
It would be foolish to avoid upgrading a weak position this year because there’s a chance we can upgrade it further next year. Sure, those players might look good right now, but they’re all pipe dreams at this point. Not every QB is going to progress. Injuries will happen. Those players are as far from guarantees for us as anyone we can grab right now, and they’re not going to help us win this year.
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Same could be said about
Kolb or anyone from this draft class though
Question?
Does Whisenhunt have enough clout w/ the Cards to take a potential franchise QB and wait for him to develop for 2 or 3 years? If he does then Gabbert in the 1st or Ponder in the 2nd have the best shot at being franchise QB’s. If he can’t wait for up to 3 years at the risk of losing his job, not to mention Fitzgerald then Whisenhunt has to go the veteran QB route and maybe get a QB in the 2nd! I am not so sure Whiz can suffer 2 more losing seasons waiting for a QB to develop… His best alternative is to get Bulger and draft Ponder in the late 1st or early 2nd or to trade for someone like Kolb!!
Whiz can’t lose Fitz and survive either… So that makes a good QB this season an imperative! It does not mean drafting a QB at #5 overall and waiting!!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Yes we can
We can lose Fitz and Survive, he is not the reason this team has success.
I think that should be clear after the 5-11 seasons early with McCown and Leinart, then the 9-7 and 10-6 playoff seasons with Warner, then back to a 5-11 season with Anderson/Hall/Skelton.
Quarterbacks make the league go around. If we get a franchise QB but lose Fitz this team is in better shape tham it is now.
You misunderstand...
I know Fitz isn’t the reason for team success, obviously that has alot to do w/ QB play. Early in Whiz’s tenure would have been the time to get his franchise QB. Cuz he didn’t draft Leinart he wasn’t tied to him.. But he allowed Leinart to stick around for a couple more years so that counts as a QB miss… From a PR standpoint this team cannot lose Fitz! ANd if they do someone has to take the fall for it… Same w/ not having a franchise QB… Someone has to take the fall if you don’t get one VERY soon!!
So who is going to be the fall guy if things don’t turn around in the next 2 years? Its gotta be Whiz or Graves… And if its Graves then Whiz is probably gone too… Cuz a new GM is probably gonna want his own HC!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Packers vs Cards
Exactly the same QB and HC situations… Both have aging QB’s who retire and QB’s drafted by the previous regime! Rodgers vs Leinart… IF McCarthy busts w/ Rodgers like Leinart has and McCarthy hasn’t had a winning season since Favre retired (like Warner) how long do you think McCarthy lasts in GB? He could already be gone…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Heads will roll if we do nothing about our quarterback position this year
Players, coaches, the FO. We will lose fans. We will not sell out home games. All that happens before the face of the franchise chooses greener pastures.
"allowed Leinart to stick around"?
That’s a change of pace. Seems the majority of people think Whis would have railroaded Matty boy out of the building day one if he was given the freedom to.
Whats the fascination with Kolb
Maybe he could be the focus of the next article I write. Guy has proven nothing but failure on the NFL level, yet peopl are willing to trade high draft picks for him. I don’t get it.
Sink or swim for Skelton makes no sense...
putting that load on a talented but still raw QB with a crappy OL is a great way to destroy a potentially very good QB. Rodgers had four years on the bench to learn the game and the system and Skelton needs the seasoning as well. A FA vet gives him and the team that opportunity.
If Skelton was THAT talented he wouldn't have been a 5th rd pick!
He is a statue that needs time to pass, he can’t make anything happen to buy time to make plays! His accuracy isn’t very good and I don’t think he has the intangibles to be an NFL starter!! Skelton doen’t have the “IT” factor at all… He just is not the answer and to count on him in any way this year or next to be the starter is asking of him which he simply isn’t capable of delivering!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
You must be a fan of
Kolb, because Skelton certainly did not play like a statue in his 4 starts at the END of our season. I’d say he had a pretty nice clutch drive on Christmas (Did you not see that game?) as far as draft status goes he went to Fordham…Besides if issues with NFLPA and the NFL continue keeping our existing roster may be the only option. Skelton is the future so deal with it.
I'm a Packer fan
GB born and GB raised… Follow the Cards by virtue of the fact I live in Scottsdale! Can Skelton step up into a pocket or avoid a pass rush and deliver under pressure? I don’t think he can! Is his accuracy downfield good enough to keep Fitz happy? I didn’t see it last year! Skelton is kinda like Mallett in this draft! If either has to adjust their feet in the pocket to avoid a rush they lose all of their accuracy!! Neither can move slide or read Defenses (like Warner did, usually Before the snap) to get rid of the ball before the rush arrives!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I am not a Skelton fan
But did you even watch the games?
The best part of his game was dodging blizters and extending the play. If he can learn how to read a defense and not just rely on his arm (DA) he has a fighting chance.
by Jesse Reynolds on Mar 20, 2011 11:16 PM MDT up reply actions
"Can Skelton step up into a pocket or avoid a pass rush and deliver under pressure?"
He did it on 4th and 15 with less then a minute left and completed the pass to Fitz leading to a game winning field goal.
I remember him throwing well on the run at times, even though some of the passes were dropped. And he very good mobility for a guy his size.
If you watched the games last year you would see the potential but you would also see that he would not be ready to take over for next year
by CanadianCard on Mar 21, 2011 4:17 PM MDT up reply actions
Did you see the play against Denver where he spun out of a sack
Then ran for 10 or 15 yards before he ran over a DB on his way out of bounds?
Or the throw to Komar in that final drive against Dallas where he was throwing off ballance?
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
by JoeCB1991 on Mar 21, 2011 4:41 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Alright
It’s obvious you did not watch Skelton play a single snap, and who cares if Larry is happy if we win the division with Skelton under center.
I don't think people see the Big picture
Ok so let’s say we do bring in a Vet like Palmer, Mcnabb, Kolb, or Bulger. Now let’s say they take this team to a 7-9 year or less. Larry will most likely leave the team for a winning team and now we our stuck with a middle of the 1st round pick and we can’t get Luck, Jones, or Barkley and they all are 10x the QB prospects that Newton and Gabbert. Let’s throw in we have a Young QB in Skelton that we don’t know what he can do because he sat all year. That is not a good spot to be in because the 2013 QB class in nothing to be happy about unless those 3 all decide to skip the 2012 draft. Now let’s say we do ride Skelton this year and he takes this team to a winning record or close. Good chance Larry resigns with the team now and we have a QB of the future. Riding him could all so take this team to a 5-10 or lower and we now know he can’t be the QB of the Future and Larry walks for a winning team, but now we can draft one of 3 of the best QB prospect sense 2004. Riding Skelton does one of two things. He becomes the QB I think he can be, or He fails and we get one of 3 great looking QB.
by McCollum, Travis on Mar 20, 2011 11:42 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
You guys are banking on those 3 players looking as good next year as they do right now
Ignoring the fact that the Cardinals are going to implode this year if they hold pat, and disregarding the potential of whatever moves we make right now to bolster our team for the future. You assume that Kolb, Bulger, Gabbert, Newton — all these guys — will be failures, then, while assuming that 3 college kids will manage to hold their value over that time? You say ride or die with Skelton, but it sounds like you’re actually saying die with Skelton so that we can improve our draft stock next year.
Think about all the risks involved in your plan. Think about the big picture consequences — what happens to this franchise if we voluntarily give up on this season? The culture reverts to a locker room full of losers. The talent we do have walks, or gets another year older. We desperately need to bolster our stable of quarterbacks! A prospect this year is as good as a prospect next year, except this year’s player will have a year of NFL experience under his belt. If we need more talent next year, then we find a way to add more next year.
How many high draft picks have the Cardinals had that didn’t turn them into a winning team?
You say
A prospect this year is as good as a prospect next year, except this year’s player will have a year of NFL experience under his belt. If we need more talent next year, then we find a way to add more next year.
So does that make Skelton better than Gabbert? I mean he has that year of NFL experience.
How many high draft picks have the Cardinals had that didn’t turn them into a winning team?
How many high draft picks did the Cards have without a quality backroom staff so were wasted is a better question to ask. Steve Keim is one of the best collegiate talent evaluators in the NFL.
But I asked you this, do you back Gabbert at #5, becasue I don’t mind that, but Gabbert at 5 this year is not going to lead us to anything better than 5-11 anyway.
If you don’t and back a defender and then a vet at QB, great, but that is not going to lead us to much better than 5-11 or 6-10 anyway unless we can magically find a way to grab one of the elite QB’s in the NFL right now.
Take a step back look at our schedule next season, honestly we are not going anywhere, not in 2011, even in our division.
They way I see it we have two options. We draft Gabbert this season and we basically say, John Skelton is not good enough, go out and grab a vet QB to start most of this season before putting Gabbert in late in the year, or we can do a Carson Palmer with him and just leave him there. We then inset Gabbert as the starter in 2012 and we move on from there.
Or; We draft Miller at #5, we add a huge piece to a 34 defense, a potential elite edge rusher, we give Skelton the shot to start 16 games to prove to us what he has or does not have. Sign a vet to play the backup if you want, Hall can stick as a #3, Anderson should not be near this team. We then look at the 2011 season in retrospect. I doubt we win more than 5 or 6 games, but we evaluate the play of Skelton, if we think we have the future on our hands, we then dip in and grab another elite defensive talent, or we grab a LT or we go after something to help on offense. If not we then go a grab one of the elite QB prospects. Any one of the trio who should be available in the 2012 draft right now for me have a higher draft grade than anyone since the 2005 draft.
There are ways forward for this team, but honestly I don’t see success in the immediate future of this team. We MUST get a franchise QB, that is the most direct way to long term consistent success at the NFL level.
If we get a franchise QB in the 2011 draft, Tremendous, If we get a guy from inside the team, Amazing. If we end up with one of the trio from the 2012 draft. Stupendous, but we MUST get an elite top tier QB or prospect in within the next season or so.
If it means Whis being fired, and Fitz playing in another uniform for us to get long term consistent success behind a Franchise QB, then I am more than happy with that.
Skelton was pitched as a guy who could develop into something in a few years
Gabbert needs some fine-tuning, but has franchise-caliber QB buzz. There’s a big difference there. Skelton’s more of a long-shot, not someone you consider picking at 1-5. Would it have helped if I had added the qualifier “comparable”? If you wanted to make a valid point, you would look at the QB’s slated to go in the later rounds and compare them to Skelton.
I’d be happy with Gabbert at 5. I’d be okay if we grabbed Miller with our first and picked up a QB in the 2nd or 3rd, as well. I’d be happy with Bulger, Kolb, or just about anyone we can get our hands on, honestly. Let a veteran start if they’re capable, then have them be the back-up a year or two down the line. Bring in a rookie and let ’em sit if the situation deems it, or throw ’em at the sharks.
It’s obvious that we need to add talent at QB. How we go about that is irrelevant to me — I’m for adding through the draft, free agency, and trades. I’m not dead-set on having any one guy in particular, I just understand that committing suicide is not the way to go.
My question is this..
What does bring in a QB like a Bulger or McNabb provide for this team long term? I am really low on Kolb otherwise I would be pushing the idea of getting him in here, but I honestly see more potential in Skelton, who I love, but still has a long long path to travel before he can consider himself a good QB.
If we go after a QB it needs to be for a good reason, long term success in mind, We do not have to add a QB for the sake of adding a QB. Don’t add a player if you don’t see a whole lot of benefit just to improve outside perception of a team.
The way I see it is this. If I thought we could go out there with a vet and win 10 games for a couple fo seasons then throw Johnny Skelton out there and keep that going then that is what I would be all for, however I don’t see Johnny developing on the bench, his issues are ones that are going to be imporved with time on the field, both in practice taking reps with the first team and in NFL game situations.
I don’t see any QB in the NFL that we could realistically trade for that would help this team no and long term. I don’t see any veteran QB who would do that. Sitting on the bench is not going to help Skelton develop the flaws that he has.
Basically I see 2011 as a season where this team is not going to have success regardless of who plays QB, unless we somehow manage to get a Manning/Brady style guy here. So why not at least see what Skelton has as a starter in the NFL, see if he provides us anything more than a backup who could play a bit in future, if he does not then we go out and hunt in 2012 for a franchsie guy. All the while we use our 2011 draft to fill holes around what will be a hopefully very good QB propsect in 2012. Draft a guard or two, maybe a developmental tackle. And we add to our defense with youth, a young CB, an elite pass rushing prospect and maybe a young SS to come in and learn from Adrian.
Take a look at how our 2011 schedule is supposed to pan out…Do you honestly see this team winning more than 5 or 6 games of that schedule with Bulger, or McNabb or Kolb or Skelton or “insert realistic QB here” becasue I don’t. So we have to take out of this season something that will help this team into the future, and that is getting youth experience, seeing what they have and then building upwards in 2012
Yes, I actuall do see the team winning more than five games
I’m a Kevin Kolb supporter, so I guess that makes your argument seem like it makes no sense to me. But I don’t like the idea of tanking a season, or just throwing it to the wild in the hopes of finding a good QB, just to get a high draft pick. I highly doubt that we’ll get the #1 pick, and Coach Whiz won’t be fine with us just sort of aiming to get a high draft pick. He’s not going to let that happen.
I like Kolb too...
If II’m the Cards I do whatever I can short of trading #5 to get hm! Kolb doesn’t have a big arm, but its more than good enough.. Good accuracy, smart kid and he’s had the advantage of being taught by Andy Reid! One of the better QB coaches in the game! I’ll trust Reids judgment over almost anyone not named Mike McCarthy! Kolb has some moxie to him too… And we all know QB’s have to have the “IT” factor in their personality. Someting I REALLY don’t see from Skelton! Whiz might be running out of time too! If he doesnt win this year, is there a next year for him in AZ?
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Kolb
Is every bit as much of an unknown as Skelton…Let alone Reid’s system makes QB’s appear better….
In his starts
Kolb has done FAR more than Skelton has done! So you think its the system and not the coach? I put my money on the coach who developed the QB and the system!!!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Just look at McNabb
Without Reid’s system…DA could go to Philly and lead the league in passing yards a couple of weeks
Donovan McNabb went to the Redskins
He had to deal with a Coaching staff which obviously didn’t want him as the starter. I mean, they told the media they were benching him before they told him. Plus, it’s not like he had the greatest supporting cast either, and he still came close (He might’ve even beaten it) to his single-season passing record.
Andy Reid is good, and his QB’s come out good.
by Skii on Mar 21, 2011 9:41 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hasn't Kevin Kolb started 7 games?
In those games he’s started, he became the first player to throw for at least 300 yards in his first two starts. He’s a 2X NFC Offensive Player of the Week, and like Strohman said, he’s an Andy Reid QB, and I trust Andy Reid’s judgement with QB’s.
I view Kevin Kolb as a project QB. The Eagles have developed him over the last four years, to the point where he’s about to leave the stage of “Project” and become a viable NFL starter. He’s young, accurate, and he’s waited his time in the NFL. In my opinion, we need to do whatever we can to get him, without giving up our #5 pick.
In 2010 he also;
Took the majority of snaps in 5 games.
In those 5 games he ended up with a QB rating that bested 5 QB’s in the NFL and trailed the heavyweights of Carson Palmer and Kerry Collins.
He had a YPA only better than two qualifying QB’s again trailing such powerhouses as Carson Palmer, Kerry Collins and Derek Anderson.
Now just to top this all off, it was against 3 of the 5 worst passing defenses in the NFL, and 5 of the bottom 11 passing defenses in the NFL.
In an offense that is friendly to QB’s, has two very good receivers and a nice TE to dump off to, as well as a stable running game and a abck who is also adept at catching the football. Against some of the worst passing defenses in the league. Kolb still struggled to have any measure of success.
That speaks volumes to the ability of Kevin Kolb.
Finally in the all import and 11-20 yard range where a huge number of passes in our offense fly, he completed 41.4% of his passes. 36.5% of his completions were throws behind the LOS. 73% of his attmepts and 89% of his completions were within 10 yards of or behind the LOS.
He is a QB that does not fit our midrange passing game at all, nor has he proven anything except mediocrity against bad passing defenses.
Yet people still want to spend high draft picks to acquire this guy?
by khodder on Mar 21, 2011 9:19 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
You know who else had a lot of
MOXIE….Max Hall
Yeah he did...
Too bad he doesn’t have the physical tools to play in the NFL! Midgets w/ HS arms don’t cut it in the NFL…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
So looking at out schedule next season we play;
SF x 2
STL x2
SEA x2
Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Cincinnati
Giants, Eagles, Redskins, Cowboys
Panthers and Vikings
Honestly I see 7 possible wins there, Home divisional games, Cleveland Cinci, Washington and Carolina.
I don’t see where other wins could come from. Add in that both the Bengals and Redskins games will be cross country trips, we are just as likely to lose a divisional game as we are to win it. I see us anywhere from 2 to 7 wins next year, almost regardless of who is at QB.
We can also easily win
The divisional games away from home. It just depends on how the team is developed over the Off-season.
I’m going to wait for the Draft, and for Free Agency to begin before I start predicting wins. What games we win depends on who we sign as our QB, what we do with our O-line, who we draft, etc. In my opinion, we should at least wait until Free Agency, or the Draft (Whichever comes sooner) to decide on what we can and can’t win.
If thing’s go well, and we have a great Draft, and we somehow get our O-line to manageable, and we get a decent/good/great QB, then we’ll be looking at a 10 game win season, and maybe even more. It all depends on what the FO/Coaching Staff does with the team over the next few weeks/months.
Draft will not matter
The draft likely will not matter for the 2011 season. Especially without as much time to get the into the teams philosophy.
Whis and the Steeler philosophy in general is notorious for slowing down the playing time of their rookies. Look at what we did with Dan this past season, look at what we have done with Beanie and DRC. The only reason Washington, Hall, Skelton and Schofield saw the field this past season was a ravage of injuries.
Honestly even if we go out get a good vet, draft brilliantly and someone how fix the OL all in one, we are still not a 10 win team. Not with the schedule we have next season.
The schedule we have is hard
But we can manage. We could easily win our division games. Will we win them all? Probably not. Can we win them? Yes. You, or someone else, already broke down the schedule, and I countered that. But I already lay down my case that if we make the right moves, have a successful draft, and get a decent QB (Moves the FO/Coaching Staff are expected to make this Off-season), we’ll be looking at a 10 win season or more.
You honestly beleive
We are going to trot out basically the same offense and same defense as last season (We will not make any big FA splashes, not in the teams nature) with a vet QB (for arguments sake lets assume say Marc Bulger) and a couple of rookies playing bit parts (because that is how the come into the Cards system, they play a small part as a backup/rotational guy before stepping into the starting lineup) and win 10 games. That is a joke. Our defense ranked 31st in the league in PPG allowed and our offense, helped by a league leading and record breaking number or return TD’s still managed just 18.1 PPG good for 26th in the NFL. We scored 19 offensive TD’s last season, Only one team (Carolina) was worst offensively than us.
Yet we are going to get a vet QB a couple of bit part vets in FA and some bit part rookies and turn the 2nd worst offense in the league combined with the 2nd worst defense in the league playing the hardest schedule in the league into 10 wins. Really. You honestly beleive that…WOW.
You honestly believe
That we’re doomed for 2011, and that Coach Whiz will allow the team to just throw games and test out players and see how they play? What team have you been watching? That’s not the coaching style of Coach Whiz, and I’m thankful for that. They’re going to try to win no matter what, which sort of goes against your prediction that they’re just going to throw John Skelton out there for 16 games with the mentality of: “Oh, it’s fine, if he does good, then that’s great, but if he doesn’t, we’ll get a good Draft pick, which will be great”. That’s not how it works.
I think you’re exaggerating the hardest schedule in the league part. Carolina has one of the hardest every year because they have to face the Bucs, Saints, and Falcons twice every year. We have to face the 49ers, Seahawks, and Rams. Please, think reasonably. Are they decent teams? Yes. Are they elite? Not yet.
I’m saying that the rookies we Draft will play a bigger part than you think. It’s a new Defensive Coordinator, and he’s bringing the Steel Curtain mentality. You’re already casting off next season as a bad year. You may be right. I’m not saying you will. But at least I’m waiting to see what the team does in Free Agency/Draft before casting off an ENTIRE season.
I’m saying that the rookies we Draft will play a bigger part than you think. It’s a new Defensive Coordinator, and he’s bringing the Steel Curtain mentality.
Horton has experssed his dislike of playing rookie early too, especially those in the secondary. I don’t see any rookie we select in the 2011 draft having a big impact on this team in 2011. 2012, different story.
You may be right. I’m not saying you will. But at least I’m waiting to see what the team does in Free Agency/Draft before casting off an ENTIRE season.
Not casting off an entire season, just looking at it realisitcally. If we go into next season with much the same starting 22 (I can think of one maybe 2 positional changes (Dan to start at NT and maybe a new starter at QB), and expect different results to the ones we reaped this season with the NFL’s easiest schedule, then we are insane.
In terms of pure talent on the team this is probably one of the weakest teams in the NFL right now, and we are talking 10 win..We are talking playoffs….Playoffs…P..P… PLAYOFFS, we’re just trying to win a game.
Also -Rookies won’t play a huge part and what FA’s have we gone after in the past under Whis that have had ANY positive impact at all. Haggans, Porter, McFadden, Faneca, Becht, Robinson, Lenon, Gandy, Anderson, None of them have had a great impact and the only ones who were close to even average were Lenon and Gandy. Yet now we are looking for a FA to improve this team. Highly unlikely.
We have to face the 49ers, Seahawks, and Rams. Please, think reasonably. Are they decent teams? Yes. Are they elite? Not yet.
All three have more talent that we do, and all three are far better in key positions including QB (IF the 49ers keep Smith)
We are going to go into 2011 with pretty much the same starting 22 as we went into 2010 with, maybe one or two starters different. That team leds us to 5-11 against the weakest schedule in the NFL with the 31st ranked offense and 31st ranked defense in the NFL. And now we even consider 10 wins?? Really…
That we’re doomed for 2011, and that Coach Whiz will allow the team to just throw games and test out players and see how they play? What team have you been watching? That’s not the coaching style of Coach Whiz, and I’m thankful for that.
I do beleive that, and it is not a product of a team giving up or not wanting to win. It is going to be a product of a team just not having the talent to compete on the NFL level.
I don't see how the rest of the NFC West
Has more talent than us. That’s an opinion, and my opinion is we’re as good as them, if not better. We lost to them, but let’s keep in mind that first of all, 55% of the passes thrown to Fitz (Or something like that) were not catchable. Most of the Offensive problems were from our QB position.
Our Defense had their good moments, but they were largely unspectacular. I believe, and I said this multiple times throughout the season in the game threads, that many of their “Give-up” moments were due to the Offense not being able to score a TD. In fact, there was one game where Ben Graham was warming up his punts before the Offense had taken a snap, and DRC never took his helmet off and stood around on the sidelines. That shows you that the Defense/Special Teams lost complete faith in the Offense, and the Offense’s problems were mainly in the QB.
All Valid
I just don’t see any QB realistically avaliable to us this offseason is going to do much better than we did last season at the position.
I also point to our lack of talent at LB (Aside from Washington and Maybe OBScho) Or lack of talent on the OL (All 5 starters are below league average to utter crap) Lack of depth at WR (thought I would never say this, but Breaston is an UFA, Komar and Williams have proven little, Doucet cannot stay healthy), Lack ofa ny talent at TE (Dray is not good, and he is better than Spach and Patrick)
Warner was key becasue he was able to mask a lot of issues on our team, mainly the lack of a TE (He rarely threw to them) and the lack of an OL (He made them look semi decent)
Warners do not grow on trees, we were incredibly lucky to catch lightning in a bottle for two seasons, but the loss of him and Q has opened my eyes and should have opened a lot of others to the stark lack of talent this team has as an entire offense.
I do think our D is a lot better than it has shown really only the LB position lacks top talent, but their constantly being on the field and lack of quality schematics hurt big time. However our talent is matched by other teams in most positions bar the seconadry.
Mebane is the best DL player in the division, and Chris Long and Justin Smith are as good if not better than any DL player on our team. Patrick Willis and Little Animal are very good LB’s who are far better than anything we can offer. And that is not brining up the likes of Curry, Tatupu, Lawson among others that are all better than anything we put out at LB.
An offense void of proven talent outside of Fitz and couple of RB’s coupled with a defense that will be taking on the task of learning a very complicated scheme in a shortened time span and then readjusting their style of play to that.
Long term there is great defensive prospects and we might have a lot of good offensive prospects too if we get a QB and build the OL. I see that the best place to aim, the future, look at 2011 as a building year, see what we have in a few younger players, maybe fianlly try to see what we actually have in Will Davis, Maybe give an athletiic specimen like AJ Jefferson take a few snaps as a CB toi see if he can hack the game mentally. Try to see what we have in Skelton and maybe give a few more snaps to the likes of Williams, all the while still trying to win football games, but just trying to win with youth as opposed to old past their prime Steelers.
Doing the same thing and expecting different results is insanity.
Please
Learn to condense. Reading your text bricks is getting to be too much.
by Jesse Reynolds on Mar 22, 2011 9:09 PM MDT up reply actions
You mean Fitz
Only caught 55 percent of the passes thrown at hiim
What stat
says which balls are catchable to a targeted receiver?
by Cardsfan928 on Mar 22, 2011 11:04 PM MDT up reply actions
There are metrics like that.
A lot of advanced stats websites that watch games numerous times have these numbers.
Urban posted it a while back
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Yet now we are looking for a FA to improve this team. Highly unlikely.
If that player is an experienced QB who can provide some leadership and good or better QB play it can be a good team competing to win the NFCW! Its still pretty much the same team that Warner led to 10 win for a few seasons! And if you draft a QB high in the 2nd you suddenly have a present and future! Its not a given, but its a damn good start! And if you want to Whiz as the HC, you can’t afford to lose this season and next!
Also if you draft Miller you suddenly have a pass rush who makes all the other pass rushers better! That goes a long way to improving the D substantially! Paired w/ a QB this year and all of a sudden the Cards can be contenders in the NFCW… All the teams have VERY similar schedules, so if your schedule is harder so is theirs!!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Drafting Miller
Is likely not to have much of an impact until 2012, such is the way the Whis works his rookies into the team
Now tell me what experienced QB on the market with good leadership and good QB play is there…
crickets….
Thought so.
Its still pretty much the same team that Warner led to 10 win for a few seasons!
One 10 win season, one of 9 and one of 8 when he started I think 11 games.
And that team had Dansby, Berry and Okeafor providing a little bit of solid pass rush, one stellar season of CB play from Rod Hood in 2008, Anquan Boldin allowing Breaston to thrive in the slot as opposed to being a starter a fit and healthy Gerald Hayes who at his best was the best thumper downhill LB in the league (Including “Can’t Wait” Bart Scott) Reggie Wells playing Guard who was our best lineman for a number of years before being inexplicably traded for a 6th round pick. And if it was possible our OL has got worse with Levi at LT and Faneca at LG.
This is far from the average team that Warner (an elite QB) elevated into a 10 win team in the weakest division in football. You take an average team, take away their franchise QB and half of its star power you end up with 4 or 5 wins. That is where this team is at now. And there is no quick fix to this either.
If we use 2011 as a year to develop younger players in the system at the same time as pushing for victories, and draft well with 2011 rookies ready to explode in 2012 with a young QB at the helm then it could be a pretty quick turnaround, but this season. I don’t see it. When over half of your starters are below league average you are really going to struggle.
QB, LT, LG, C, RG, RT, TE – All below average players starting in those positons
ILB, OLB, OLB, CB – All below average players starting in those positions
And then if Roberts is forced to be the #2 WR our #3 is going to be below league average, Dan Williams is unproven as a NT though I have huge hopes for him, and if Adrian Wilson cannot find his form again post injury then we might need to add another starter to the team at SS. Beanie and Tim at RB are still an enigma of a duo.
The only players who have earned and deserve their spots right now are Fitz, Campbell, Dockett, DRC, Rhodes, Breaston and WIlson.
Wilson might never regain his top 3 safety form Breaston is likely not on the team for game 1 this season (He is an UFA as soon as a CBA is signed) Campbell is an UFA after the 2012 season, DRC’s play has fallen off the map, Fitz is a FA after 2012.
Honestly, this team is in a HUGE hole. They do njot have the team to compete this season, but not competing this season could cost them two of the players currently on their team that are actually worth something…
It is a long road ahead for the Cardinals
Wells, our best lineman? Really?
Wells was considered our weakest lineman last year. I haven’t read anything, from any scout that indicated otherwise.
I think you also know our team better than other teams and do not see their glaring weaknesses like you do ours. While this team is no contender, it isn’t near as bad as you make it out to be.
by Jesse Reynolds on Mar 22, 2011 9:12 PM MDT up reply actions
*The last year Wells played he was considered a weak lineman struggling in run and pass protection. Our running game stats were actually decent with Faneca and Brown doing well on run plays. Our line can run the ball okay, they just can’t pass protect.
by Jesse Reynolds on Mar 22, 2011 9:14 PM MDT up reply actions
Behind Wells in 09
As Compared to behind Faneca in 2010. The team fared no better running behind the LG position between Wells and Faneca. And don’t even start on how bad Faneca was compared to Wells at protecting the QB…
Put it this way. In his one season in Arizona, 16 starts Faneca allowed 5.5 sacks, Over his fianl three seasons with the Cards, 48 starts, Wells allowed 4.5 sacks. Now that has a lot to do with Warner vs the trash we had this past season, but 1 less sack allowe din 32 more starts, speaks volumes.
We traded a younger, equally bad run blocker and exponentially better pass blocking guard to let Alan Faneca start for us, and the only reason I can think of…….
There is none I don’t get it. Heck there was even a stretch in 2006 where Reggie was a blindside tackle and the team played some of its best passing football that season.
And you have stats to back this up?
Or is it JUST your opinion like anyone elses?!!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Pass Blocking Stats are there for all to see;
Links if you care;
http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=4288&team=22 – Faneca
http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=6513&team=21 – Wells
http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol
In 2010 behind Mid/Guard and behind LT, the two most crucial areas in run blocking for a Left Guard the Cards averaged 3.64 and 2.95 YPC with Faneca
http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2009
In 2009 in those same two categories the Cards average 3.94 and 3.80 respectively with Reggie Wells.
Both marks better with Wells as opposed to Faneca.
Problem is
I will not subscribe to ProFootballFocus anymore which lists the break down of each lineman. Reggie Wells gave up the most tackles for losses as a guard. I admit I do not have stats, but they do exist, just cost money.
by Jesse Reynolds on Mar 22, 2011 11:59 PM MDT up reply actions
PFF is Trash
Honestly the way they talk about their numbers you would think they are stat gurus, but honestly their coverage metrics were horrible (Did not even allocate for a “hole in zone”)
Their rating system was trash and completely subjective.
I don’t doubt that maybe Reggie did stuggle vs the run in 09, but he was also a tremendous pass blocker on a team that throws the football upwards of 60% of the time. And it is not like Faneca was any better in the running game.
Tremendous?
Disagree with your assessment of PFF, they are an increasingly reliable source of information.
Wells was never tremendous at any aspect of the game.
Also, what is the difference between Warner and DA? Lots, but respect is a big component. How many times did teams stack the box against Warner vs DA and crew? Does that not skew stats?
While many of your assessments are spot on, Wells was never very good for us.
by Jesse Reynolds on Mar 23, 2011 12:25 PM MDT up reply actions
Some area of PFF are OK
I.E their sack, pressure and hit numbers are OK. But most of the rest is trash.
They pride themselves on their subjective rankings and their coverage metrics which are horrible. (If you ever ask someone with access to STATS LLC (The official provider of state to the NFL) you will find out that the numbers provided by PFF are horrid)
Wells allowed 4.5 sacks over a three year period at LG. Average of one sack every 10 games. I would call that pretty tremendous with regards to his pass blocking feats.
Tremendous?
Definitely a very good stat for an interior lineman.
Metrics also stated how we average less yards per carry behind him than Lutui and even Sendlein.
We can agree to disagree but Wells was never good, he was mediocre at best. I still point to Warner VS DA. Warner was sacked only 26 times in 2008, does that mean Levi and Gandi are good?
by Jesse Reynolds on Mar 24, 2011 11:30 AM MDT up reply actions
2008
2007 and 2008 Gandy was pretty good as a LT. He allowed a fair bit of pressure, but he tended to keep Kurt/ His QB off the ground. In 2007 Gandy allowed just 1 sack from his LT spot 6.25 in 08.
In 2008 Kurt was sacked 28 times. 11 of those were the fault of Levi Brown, in no way shape or form was he “good”.
Reggie was an outstnading pass protector. You cannot deny that, he struggled in the running game, I have said that more than once, but as a pass protector, he is “tremendous”
4.5 sacks allowed over 48 starts, compare that to any other guard over a period of 48 starts and you will see that it is better than almost any other guard out there.
Kris Deilman – 07-08-09 when he was widely accepted as the best guard in the NFL, 3.5 sacks allowed over 47 starts.
Steve Hutchinson – 03-04-05, 9.25 sacks allowed over 48 games.
Jahri Evans – 08-09-10, 5 sacks allowed over 48 games.
Brian Waters – The best pass blocking Guard in the NFL right now, IN his prime 03-04-05 – 2 sacks allowed in 48 games.
Reggie Wells ranks up and around the best in pass blocking as a guard.
Well, touche.
I admit, Wells is better in pass protection than Faneca.
Curious how we traded a better pass protector for a better run blocker only to throw too often, especially on 3rd as you noted on your other post.
by Jesse Reynolds on Mar 26, 2011 11:12 AM MDT up reply actions
Such as...
The Seahwaks glaring holes in their secondary, and lack of any quality at WR (if Mike Williams reverts back to the guy we used to know)
The Rams and their massive issues at WR. The 49ers and their issues in the secondary at S and CB with age a big concern and rushing the passer.
I see them, but their holes are not in as important areass as ours. Threeof the most importnat parts of a successful team. Pass Rush, Great QB play, Solid running game. We are 0 fa 3 there.
holes as important?
You mean like the gaping hole at QB that every team has beside St L? Thats the only hole that can’t be schemed for… And 3 teams in your division have the same one!! Yet you WANT to go w/ Skelton? Now THAT makes NO sense!!!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
QB is one massive hole
But the Rams and Seahawks are both very good at rushing the passer and the 49ers are solid. All three of them have rather nice running games. Then if you want to add in OL we trail all the other teams by a long shot…
STL has 4/4, SF has 2 or 3/4, Seattle has 3/4 Arizona is 0/4.
Every team w/o a QB is VERY beatable!
But you want the Cards to bypass a QB, any QB, who will put you at least in 2nd in your division? And w/ a legit shot at winning it…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I want to win long term
I want this team to turn into a team that can win 10-12 games a year for the next decade.
And I am willing to pass on short term stopgaps this season to get to that point. Even if it means John Skelton starting and another very tough ugly losing season.
If the team thinks Gabbert is the guy and he is there at 5 no issues with picking him. But continually putting a band-aid on a 6 inch deep gash is noty going to solve anything.
Stablilty wins...
The problem as I see it is that Whiz can’t last another year or 2 w/o a winning QB! If you want to have a perrenial winner like Pitts or GB you have to have stability at the top. whiz and Graves might be gone and then your starting from scratch again! Better get a QB Whiz can win w/ or its gonna be time to start over again! Oh and Graves doesn’t cut it as a GB in the first place!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Are you on
repeat mode? You say the same thing often…
by Jesse Reynolds on Mar 24, 2011 11:31 AM MDT up reply actions
Wells
didn’t play last year…and he was the most well rounded one we had.
by Cardsfan928 on Mar 22, 2011 11:06 PM MDT up reply actions
He didn't play last year
becasue we traded him to the Eagles for a 6th round pick.
I can only hope we learn a lesson and insert Hadnot at LG this season.
If Miller sits cuz he's inexperienced
Whiz deserves to be FIRED!!! His impact just being on the field would make everyone better! Between him and Schofield (I’m a Badger fan too) they would have a pretty damn good pass rush!!! Did the Packers consider keeping Matthews on the bench? Hell NO… Packers are the ultimate draft and develop team! And they still started him as soon as he was healthy! He had a hamstring otherwise he would have started Day 1…
Warner himself says Bulger would be a great fit and do a really good job!!! But you don’t think he knows? LOL
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Look at past history
Brown started, but we had no-one behind him on the depth Chart,,
DRC was a nickel guy until midway through his rookie year, behind Rolle and Eric Green (ew).
Beanie Wells has rarely started for this team and is still the #2 back.
Williams played about 350-400 snaps out of over 1000 this season for our defense and he was behind the decrepid Brian Robinson
Whis HATES playing rookies early, it is why he benched Washington as soon as Hayes was seemingly healthy. It is why he took so long to get Anderson out of there and why he was so quick to put him back in.
I think Bulger is the best fit, but lets not kid ourselves, he is no Warner not even close, at best I think next season he could be a middle of the pack QB, huge improvement from what we had this year, but nothing long term.
I don't care about past history!
If you have a playmaker you PLAY him! You don’t waste him on the sidelines. Maybe thats why Whiz might lose his job next year! Its unforgiveable NOT to have your best players on the field!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
If you have a playmaker you play him...
Whis has a history of doing the opposite. So does the Pittsburgh Steeler organisation where our HC, Asst HC, and DC have all spent considerable time being groomed.
If we draft Miller I would LOVE for him to start, but I don’t see it. maybe 500-600 snaps at best IMO.
You can't compare the Cards to the Steelers!
They’ve been successful for decades almost w/o fail. They have very solid role players at almost every position and can afford to let rookies learn. The Cards don’t have that luxury and if they act like they do, the entire FO needs to go!!! When you have depth like the Steelers then you can afford to let rookies learn! But your not even close, so the argument is lost before it begins!!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Yet
that is exactly what Whisenhunt is trying to do here, Develop a franchise that is run very much like the Steelers, bringing guys along slowy rather than forcing them in, running the 3-4 defense, building a big OL that struggles vs the pass, but can block for the run.
The Cards as a franchise are lightyears from the Steelers, but that is exactly the type of mentality Whis is trying to build around here.
Mentality...
Well that mentality is out the window if you have pedestrian players in front of playmakers! Packers have been doing things the “Steeler Way” since THompson arrived… But when they get a playmaker he plays pretty quickly! Matthews for example! But they also have had alot of guys they have developed slowly. Jermichael Finley for example. But in general high 1st round picks are playmakers that have to play NOW, not later! Sitting Miller would be akin to the Packers sitting Matthews!!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
playing
Brown? Talk about a major draft blunder! No wonder the cards have a crap OL!
DRC came from what D-2 and he started as a rookie didn’t he?
Wells? He STILL can’t win a starting job cuz he sucks… Boy has no heart!
Williams late 1st… Alot of them don’t start as rookies!
Miller is a Top 5 talent!!! He HAS to be on the field Day 1, if he’s not Whiz deserves to be FIRED!! Miller is flat out a playmaker and the best on the D the day he’s in camp.. Kinda different than Wells or Brown isn’t it?
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Maybe;
But Williams was a top 10 talent, he was 7th on our big board Reportedly and he played behind a 36 year old who did next to nothing as a NT last season.
I would love to see Miller start from day 1. I just don’t see it happening.
And Matthews was about 12 on the Packers board...
And we got him at 26… Raji must have been higher, and Raji didn’t start cuz we had a very solid vet in Pickett in front of him! But Matthews would have started Day 1 if not for the Hammy. WHat did he do in his 1st start? Ripped the ball out of Peterson’s hands and took it for a TD… Playmakers play immediately! You remember Peterson don’t you? The guy you passed on to take Brown!!! LOL
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Dan Williams
Was eventually playing most of the snaps. They started Bryan Robinson for ceremonial reasons. You really can’t use Dan Williams in this arguament.
Eventually is the key
Overall for the season he still only played 35.44% of the teams defensive snaps this season.
Why dont you
Go back to the Packers Blog Strohman…Warner’s gone and if he stayed one more season he would have given Rodgers another spankin’…but he didn’t so back to the Acme Packing Company…and take tw3kr with you…I’m not a fan of meth
by Cardsfan928 on Mar 22, 2011 11:10 PM MDT up reply actions
Stop bye... you'll see me there!! LOL
Warner would have spanked Rodgers? LMAO Yeah like Big Ben? Like Vick? Like Matty Ice?
Packers are light years ahead of the Cards and your pissed… And Rodgers is right now the All Time leader in QB rating in the regular season AND the playoffs! But Warner would spank him? LOL
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
To be fair
Kurt Warner did it once already in the Playoffs. Don’t try to talk down Kurt Warner. He has his own rank on the QB scale. He’s that good.
Kurt Warner holds a ton of records too, including Playoff records, and Superbowl records. He won a Superbowl too. He took two bad teams and made them good. He’s Kurt Warner. Enough said.
I'm not talkin down Warner.
He WAS a great QB! And he’s a HOFer… Cardsfan928 started the trash talk! Not me… I only responded w/ some info for him to keep in mind since he was putting down Rodgers and the Packers! He should keep in mind who the SB Champions are! LOL Cards were the better team that day. Who do you think is the better team now?
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Honestly
Theres not much to talk about at APC right now! We don’t have any real needs in the draft. Its strictly BPA for us like most years. We don’t do FA, so thats a non-topic… About the only thing drawing comments is CBA related and thats gotten tedious. Would like to see the Cards do well, so for now I’ll give my 2 cents for them. Wish they would turn it around…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
This whole discussion has devolved into a mess
What we’re talking about is how does this team improve? We have some real strong opinions here, and some very valid points. I’m not in complete agreement with khodder’s opinions but one thing I think we all agree on is this: we have a big opportunity here to fill some big holes. Do we get the pass rusher and sign the FA QB? It could work. Do we draft Gabbert? He may be the elite QB we all want. But he is far from a sure thing. I am afraid if we try for the home run by drafting him, we will strike out instead. But what I really am looking for is action by the FO that shows committment to improving this team, whatever that action may be.
It's a weak draft for QB.
If Gabbert is even available at #5, I don’t think he’s worth it. Too many questions. Take Miller at 5, then look to see if anybody slipped to round 2 (Locker, Mallet) or Rd 3 (Ponder, Dalton, etc…). Sign Bulger and let the best QB win. If it’s Bulger, Skelton (or the new guy) has some time to learn. If it’s Skelton, we’ve got a solid backup. Then focus on the many needs the team has, like OL and linebacker. Then use some of the late round magic the Cardinals have had recently and look for a small-school receiver and/or corner.
But you are assuming that
Bulger will even want to come here. That’s not certain. In fact, there is the rumor that he wants to stay somewhere near St. Louis.
Like the Cardinals? Revenge of the Birds is where to go.
Like Arizona Sports in general? SB Nation Arizona is where you'll get it all.
Too many questions
What questions are you referring to about Gabbert? He played a spread offense, You mean like Bradford?! He isn’t smart enough? Got a 42 on his wonderlic… Accuracy? Seems to be good… Arm strength? He can make all the NFL throws w/ ease… Only question about him is that he might be a little overconfident… I seem to remember that being the case w/ Aaron Rodgers when my Packers drafted him!! How has that turned out? He just won a SB and was MVP!!! LOL
My only question, which nobody has answered as yet… Can Whiz survive another year or 2 w/ a losing record? If he can you take Gabbert NOW… When you have a shot at a potential franchise QB you take it! You don’t wait as say the guys next year will be better! Thats how you get to be well… Tha Arizona Cardinals!! If Whiz can’t survive another year or 2 of losing records you have to get a good QB NOW!! That means Bulger or Kolb… Then you can draft a prospect in the 2nd or 3rd to be the man down the road 2 years!
Honestly I liked Matt Flynn coming out of LSU alot more than I like Skelton after a year in the NFL!! You guys interested in Flynn?! LOL
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I don't think Whiz survives another year like last year
While he’s done well in the 4 years he’s had, now that the franchise has seen some success, i don’t see how they could throw away another year and give him Whiz another free pass.
You nailed it on the head—If you believe that Gabbert is a franchise QB, you take him. End of discussion.
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
Porblem here is
We are not going to have to “throw it away” to end up with 4 or 5 wins again next season. Look at our schedule. It is absolutely brutal. Honestly we won 5 games with the easiest schedule in the NFL last season, now we are heading into a season where we are slated to have the most difficult schedule…
The year is likely a wash either way unless Skelton really comes out on fire, or we end up with a guy like Manning/Brady for some absurd reason.
So why not at least use the year to see what we have in Skelton and build towards winning in 2012 and 2013, Whis needs to convice the ownership that right now this team is not built to win, but we can win big in 2012 and 2013 if we are allowed to build youth in 2011 and then hope to expand on that in 2012 and beyond.
You're looking at this in a pescimmistic way
Basically, you’re counting on us losing a lot of games. Well, we just got a new Defensive Coordinator. If we draft Von Miller, we’ll automatically have a fantastic, young LB corps. In fact, I predict our whole Defense will be decent next year.
That’s just Defense alone. I don’t want us to throw away another season testing out players. Coach Whiz doesn’t want that either, and neither do the players. Remember, this is their job. They’re not getting paid millions of Dollars to lose. They’re going to try their best, which means we’re going to win games. You’re counting on the whole team to lose a lot of games so we draft a QB. The only problem is, the rest of the team doesn’t have your mentality of “Lose and hope to get lucky in the Draft”.
Horton has been quoted as saying
On the struggles of Bryant McFadden last season
" We are still trying to get the Arizona out of him" it is not going to be a single season fix changing defensive scheme like that, from one that emphasized man coverage ro one that is zone heavy. Who that involves zone blitzes and two gap play on the DL from one that involved very little zone blitzing and allowing our DL to play one gap as they pleased. If we draft Miller it is unlikely he starts a game until at least midseason, if at all.
It is not a lose and hope to get lucky in the draft mentality. It is a realistic mentality, we are not a good football team, we are installing a new offense that is going to need 5 new starters on it before it is really any quality, and we currently have no QB, no RB’s worth anything, an OL that ranks among the worst in the league, no TightEnd worth anything. Heck our only offensive player that is starting quality is Fitz.
This team is going nowhere in 2011, unless they get very, very, very lucky. So why not see what our prospect at QB has, why not give Skleton a shot, why not allow the kid a chance to prove what he has, it will be no worse than trying to “do something” by signing McNabb or Bulger as a 1 year stop gap, just delaying the inevitable.
It is not a lose and hope to get lucky in the draft mentality. It is a realistic mentality
If the Cards pass on a potential franchise QB, its not a realistic mentality!!! Its an Arizona Cardinals mentality!!! You know the one that has pervaded the team for decades…
A good coordinator doesn’t take players and make them fit his scheme… He makes his scheme fit the strengths of his players! Like Capers did for the Pack!
If you lack playmakers on offense its all the more reason to get the franchise QB and build around him!! Like St L did w/ Bradford!! That seemed to work out pretty well for them…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Going nowhere in 2011?
First of all, we’re in the NFC West. A division won by a 7 game win team. Yes, the whole NFC West got better, but it doesn’t mean they’re all automatically going to be elite teams. We have a huge, huge, huge chance of making the Playoffs, simply because of the division we’re in.
Secondly, I don’t see how Fitz is the only Offensive player that is starting quality. How about Steve Breaston? Andre Roberts seemed good to me. In fact, our WR’s are one of our biggest strengths. Do I think we’re the Patriots? No, but I think we’re going to be good, and we’re ready to be good. All we need is a decent QB and and O-line who can give more than five seconds of protection (Which will probably end up being the biggest challenge).
If we have a successful Draft, and get a QB, things will look a lot different. 2011 is our year to take. It just depends on if the FO/Coaching Staff take advantage of that.
You seem overly optimistic
Rookies will have a negligible impact, even if we get Miller at #5 or Peterson at #5 they will not play huge roles. Miller will start off as a 3rd down pass rush specialiast and will probably play no more than 350-400 snaps as a rookie. Peterson will likely be the #3 CB, and will be bought along ala DRC in 08.
Breaston is an above average #2, he thrived on the accuracy of Warner. Also lets not forget he is an UFA as soon as any CBA gets done and is probably not with the team next season leaving Andre Roberts a solid #3 guy for now as our #2 option.
Why do you say he's not with the team next season?
If we get a QB, I have no reason to doubt that he’ll come back. He likes the team, and the fans like him. It depends on who we get as QB.
I may be overly optimistic, but you seem to be overly pessimistic. Saying we have no chance next year is a drastic decision. We don’t even know who our QB’s are. The Coaching Staff/FO are working on trying to find one. Once the courts order the Off-season to go on, or whatever happens to make the lawyers start to negotiate and get it done, I think, and expect, that the Cardinals will make the right moves to keep their FA’s, and make the right moves.
I’m pretty sure Darren Urban, the Cardinals writer, had a list of all the FA’s that were top priorities to the Cardinals. I’m pretty sure Steve Breaston was on it.
Not next season THIS Season
Breaston is not under contract for the 2011 season if a CBA is signed. We offered a RFA tender, but as soon as a CBA is signed he becomes an UFA. There are obviously reason we made next to no efforts to sign him to an extension this season and there are obviously reasons why late in the season a healthy Breaston was replace by Andre Roberts in numerous packages. We are not going to resign Breaston, and we are going to allocate those funds to a “convince Larry to stay” campaign.
Keeping Fitz is a top priority
I’m glad to see the team is taking the necessary steps to keep him. But I still believe that Steve Breaston will be kept on, and if he’s not, then I trust the FO/Coaching Staff to find a suitable replacement. I’m not too worried about that, because our scouts are fantastic at finding WR’s. It’s one of their biggest strengths.
"Convince Larry to stay"
hah…I like it but it is foolish…Breaston has been as reliable as any WR
But he is as good as gone
Why did the team not make any effort to resign him as he headed into UFA status. Why did they phase him out of the offense when fully healthy.
All signs point to him having played his last game here.
When was he fully healthy?
He wasn’t “phased” out. I think this is a ridiculous assertation.
by Jesse Reynolds on Mar 22, 2011 9:15 PM MDT up reply actions
Look at the number of snaps played over the final 3 games
Look how many times you see Breaston on the bench and Roberts playing as the #2 wideout. Late in the season Breaston was being phased out of the offense, don’t ask me why, but his snaps went down and Roberts passed him on the depth chart. And as soon as a CBA is signed he becomes an UFA.
Couldn't be becuz they were out of the playoffs?
So like many teams they give the inexperienced playing time to get them experience!!! This isn’t rocket science man… Think a little… Or maybe don’t overthink! Which ever it is…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Very possible
But the team did not even make an attempt to begin starting to talk about a contract with Breaston and he is now an UFA. Does not bode well for keeping him.
He had his chance as a starter...
And didn’t produce… Packers are letting James Jones walk at WR for the same reason! WHen Driver was down Jones didn’t step up and play like a starter. And when a guy is likely to be demoted you let him leave! Players don’t accept being demoted… They cause problems!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
That had more to do with his health...
He was limited in practice for a while. Just recently Stevie B has been tweeting how good his knee feels
Like the Cardinals? Revenge of the Birds is where to go.
Like Arizona Sports in general? SB Nation Arizona is where you'll get it all.
So you think
The tender offer was just a gesture?
by Jesse Reynolds on Mar 23, 2011 12:02 AM MDT up reply actions
Tender off won't matter
The tender off only matters becasue without a CBA he was still a RFA, as soon as a CBA is signed, he becomes an UFA and the tender offer does not matter at all.
the actual problem is
If we end up with another terrible season next year, it’s unlikely that Whiz is kept on. At that moment, we have lost so much more because we are starting all over again. There is nothing that anyone can say that will allow me to believe that Skelton is even close to resembling a starting QB in the NFL, and an offseason without coaching is going to hurt him more than anything else.
If we go into the season with Skelton as the starter and stick with him for 16 games, the only way we aren’t throwing away the season is if Skelton turns out to be an above average QB immediately. I would bet every penny I’ve ever made and will ever make that he won’t be that next season.
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
John Skelton needs time
If we keep him as the starter for all 16 games, I’m going to hope he becomes good. But I agree with you completely: If we have another bad season, Coach Whiz is gone, and with that, many, many fans and one of the best Coaches the Cardinals have ever had.
Throw away a season!
If your doing that you better damn well get yourself a franchise QB to do it with!! And that guy ain’t Skelton!!! He MIGHT end up being a good QB at some point but he ain’t no franchise QB and he isn’t going to be one… If he ends up sticking in the NFL for more than a few years he might at some point earn a shot at being a “starter”, but it will be a nominal starter, much like Matt Flynn might be for a team in a year or two! Personally, I think Flynn is a much better prospect than Skelton…
That is my unbiased Cards opinion… I understand you guys want to believe Skelton can be the answer, but I’ve been watching great QB play for the past 20 years, and your delluding yourself if you think Skelton has “IT” or anything close…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Probably not;
If your doing that you better damn well get yourself a franchise QB to do it with!! And that guy ain’t Skelton!!!
You are probably right, but you have to give him the chance to prove himself, and then we have the shot at our pick of the litter in 2011.
Look how the Bucs have done things. They got rid of all the dead wood, took a couple of bad seasons to rebuild things and now they are on the cusp of having a really quality offense led by a borderline elite QB, backed by a quality defense.
And agin, it is not throwing away the season, it is changing the forumla. We went with aging former stars last year and it blew up in our face, why not see if throwing some youth out there is going to bring any differnet of a result.
Insantiy is doing the same things and expecting different results.
Why?
Do you have to give him a chance? he was a 5th rd draft pick! Not a 1st rd pick… Teams that pass on franchise QB always lose in the end and regret not taking him.
Any formula that doesn’t include taking a franchise QB when it can is a LOSING formula!! Kinda like the Cards history!!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
by great Qb play...
Do you mean the man who has thrown more interceptions than anybody in history?
That may be true...
But he was a great QB for a LONG time and is a sure 1st ballot HOF QB!!!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Looking ahead at schedules is an exercise in futility!!!
But then your the Cards fans, so your accustomed to futility… Just Dumb!!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I can't believe how many people are fine with Fitz leaving
I’ve said this before (Several times), and I’ll say it again: Larry Fitzgerald means so much more than just football. He fills up the crowds. He sells jersey’s. He’s the only reason Kevin Kolb wants the Cardinals to be on the list of teams the Eagles are talking to about trading him. He attracts FA’s. All of that, plus the fact that he’s one of the best WR’s to ever play the game.
He wants to stay in Arizona. He’s said that before, many times. He also wants to win. I want that kind of player on my team, which is why keeping Fitz is so important. Besides, if we lose Fitz, many fans won’t renew their season tickets/buy tickets to games, which will mean blackouts (Ending our streak of sell-outs), and loss of money for the franchise.
Keeping Fitz is vital to becoming a good team. He has the leadership and experience to help this team become great again. We can’t let him go, no matter what.
by Skii on Mar 21, 2011 4:50 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
It is not so much being fine with Fitz leaving
Moreso that if he wants to leave he is going to leave, regardless of whether we win 5 or 10 games in 2011. And if he has to leave to enable this team to finally get a franchise QB for an extended period of time, then I am good with that.
In terms of making money and marekting Fitz is indispensible, but in terms of the team actually playing well on the football field a WR is probaly the lest important part of an elite offense.
I don’t care if the franchise loses money, I don’t mind blackouts short term, I really could not care less if the tickets were sold out. Football is about the product on the field, if you have a product on the field that wins game you are going to sell tickets. If you have a product on the field that loses games you are not, regardless of who is playing on that team.
Keeping an elite WR is not nor will it ever be “vital” to becoming a good team. Getting an elite QB is vital to becoming a good team.
Money>Winning, is that how you see it, becasue that is what you put forth there, Fitz is going to make money for the franchise.
Indeed...
Besides before Warner…with Fitz….losing team…Warner’s Resurrection…with Fitz…Conference champs…playoff contenders….After Warner….Larry’s getting a boatload…losing team…and once again get mocked for being Cardinals fans…I agree with Khodder completely…Elite offenses dont need elite WR’s
Franchise QB in the draft
If Whis and Graves think that Gabbert or Newton (or whomever) is their guy then they need to take him at #5. You don’t wait a season on the possibility of getting another high round pick unless you don’t expect any shot at your divison at all. It’s not a track of thought that Whis is going to follow. If they don’t believe any of these guys are franchise QBs then I would expect the best defensive player available to be picked, (Miller, Peterson…).
Skelton is not ready to lead the team this season. He is a long shot at being a franchise QB too. He is the only guy currently on the roster that should be brought back though.
As for Fitz, you build the team to win, not to coddle one personality. The bottom line is we need the best QB we can possibly get and that goes hand in hand with keeping Fitz happy. If he walks after next season so be it. Skelton is not the best possible option by any stretch of imagination.
Odds are we go to the draft without any deal between the players and owners. That makes it far more likely in my mind that the Cardinals pick either Gabbert or Newton if still available. There’s a very real chance that neither are on the board that long.
lol.
They’re both bad, Newton is just a little bit less bad than Gabbert (and that’s saying something).
While I agree with hadrarius (if Whis and Graves think they have found “their guy”, then they NEED TO TAKE HIM), I disagree with the notion that either Gabbert or Newton are “the guy”. Ultimately, I’d rather just take the best defender, and hope for the best with what we already have, and with what we can acquire through either free agency or trading. It’s a shit scenario, but these are some shit quarterbacks we’re talking about here.
Gabbert
I like him… He’s far and away the closest thing to a frachise QB. His only knock is that he comes off as cocky and slightly arrogant, from what I’ve heard. Thats what they said about Rodgers too. So if he’s anything like Rodgers he’ll be a franchise QB. Coming from a spread instead of a pro style offense like Rodgers might mean a little extra time to develop. Rodgers was ready after 2 yrs, Gabbert will get more of a crash course tho, so he should be a competent QB in yr 3 for sure and a top tier QB in year 4. Just my opinion…
Anyone hear of any other negatives about Gabbert?
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Yes
Bad pocket presence, tendency to get sloppy with his footwork, bad at going through progressions, and not being “clutch”.
Gabbert and all the QB’s in this draft are over-hyped and it looks like you buy into whatever ESPN sales.
by Jesse Reynolds on Mar 24, 2011 11:34 AM MDT up reply actions
Footwork and mechanics
All QB’s coming out of college have to work on! Going thru progressions is something every college QB has to improve on! Bad Pocket presence? Not sure what you mean, but Rodgers didn’t have the presence of mind to get rid of the ball on time either. Took 50+ sacks 2 years ago… But he’s getting better at it. Is that another Rodgers comparison? LOL I don’t think Gabbert is going to be Rodgers, more likely Eli, but Eli has a SB and is a top 10 QB! And a franchise QB.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
If you have a good QB coach or guru...
Who is the Cards guy? Send us a 5th round pick and we’ll put him thru McCarthy’s QB school for a couple offseasons. LOL Then everyone wins… You get a more polished QB and we get a pick for our trouble!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
You need to go back to Acme
All this talk of Blaine Gabbert as a Franchise QB? Have you seen his tape at Mizzou? I ’ll tell what I here about Gabbert from the talking heads. His intangibles are off the charts! They never talk about his abilty to throw the football.
Blaine Gabbert played in a spread attack at Mizzou.
Completion % TD% INT% YPA
Sam Bradford (So.) 67.9 10.3 1.6 9.77
Chase Daniel (Jr.) 68.2 5.9 2.0 7.65
Chase Daniel (Sr.) 72.9 7.3 3.4 8.21
Blaine Gabbert (So.) 58.9 5.4 2.0 8.07
Blaine Gabbert (Jr.) 63.4 3.3 1.9 6.71
Chase Daniels threw for 70 TD’s in the same system that Gabbert played in. How many did Blaine Gabbert pass for? 40, that’s it. 2010 stat line for Blaine Gabbert——-16 TD’s vs 9 picks. That’s not the kind of production worthy of a guy being taken high in a draft. Gabbert’s game tape is extremely average.
Gabbeerts’s agent, Tom Condon is doing a phenominal job of hyping this kid along with the BSPN’’s of the world.
I think I'll stay!! Much to your chagrin...
Gabberts arm is excellent. Nobody ever said his accuracy is great, but its more than good enough. Chase Daniels had Coffman, Maklin and a RB thats in the NFL, they had a talented team! Thats why they won the Big 12 North a couple years. Who has Gabbert had of similar talent? But he still made them competitive… That says something. I think Gabberts intangible are fine, I’m not worried about them, but I’ve pointed out that some think he is arrogant, and mentioned that compariison to Rodgers as a reason I wasn’t worried about it… Cuz you know Rodgers… He’s pretty freakin good!!! LOL
Isn’t hyping a player every agents job? If he isn’t doing that he wouldn’t be a good agent! LOL
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Yes his agent is doing a fine job
Here’s the problem. It’s so called informed football fans like you that join a chorus of hype and praise and you look foolish. I love how production doesn’t matter when some want to justify their position on player while another players production can be off tthe charts and not be relevant at all. Laugable!
I know what a NFL QB looks like ( it is there on SB Nation blogs for all to see) and believe you me, Blaine Gabbert is not the guy to lead this Franchise. Gabbert is the kind of QB that will need all the pieces of the puzzle in place inorder to have success, such a great OL and running game. They don’t exist in AZ right now. You can continue to pump up Blaine Gabbert. Gabbert did’nt carry Mizzou and he will NOTcarry any NFL team either!
Just so you know
I think Aaron Rodgers is a stud. I wrote a piece on Rodgers prior to the GB playoff lose to Kurt Warner in week 17 of the 2009 season here on ROTB . I didn’t need convincing then of his talent and certainly need no convincing of it now.
Than you very much!
Would like to read it... Got a link?
I’ve been watching HOF QB’s for the past 20+ years and I think Gabbert is the best chance to be one in this draft. I think he will be… We’ll have to agree to disagree! I never thought Leinart was a good QB! WOuldn’t have wanted Young and had reservations about Cutler, tho I would have taken Cutler over the others! I think I’m pretty knowledgable about what it takes to be a Quality starting QB too…
I think Miller should be the Cards pick… And that the Cards should do whatever it takes to get Ponder. IMO, thats the best way to help them win soon! Get the pass rusher you need and the franchise QB! Nobody ever knows for sure which QB’s will pan out, but Gabbert and Ponder are the only 2 I see in this draft! If you get the QB at 5, you won’t get a top pass rusher you need!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
That's okay
You have futher convince me of your lack of judgement/ talent evaluation skills. Both Gabbert and Ponder are West Coast system QB’s. A vertical passsing game is the not the best fit for either guy. And to boot, Ponder was hurt a lot in college at FSU.
I’m getting tired of you now. Be gone! Poof!
Probably becuz Packers are a WC team...
So I tend to think in those terms. Everyone here has been saying the Cards are a short/intermediate passing team. WHich is the WCO. Not entirely sure what offense the Cards run!
Ponder had shoulder injuries his Sr season, which had alot to do w/ his numbers being down from his Jr season… Those shoulder concerns have largely been put to rest which is why he is moving up draft boards since the Sr bowl and combine!
Like I’ve said, I’m no expert on the schemes Whiz runs on offense. I know on the the Packers run the Pitts D that Capers and LeBeau oritginally designed, which I presume will be the Cards basic 34 D as well…
But I do think in WCO terms for offense. I do know other offensive schemes but don’t know the idiocincrisies and talent requirements of them… I’ve been immersed w/ the WCO for over 20 years now, so forgive me for not having been looking past that. So what offensive scheme does Whiz run and what are the needs of the QB that are so much different than the WCO? Packers have been throwing the ball downfield alot more than they used to, cuz Rodgers in tremendously accurate downfield! Can’t imagine any offense that goes downfield more than the Packers w/ Rodgers at QB!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
For the record!
Franchise QB’s are QB’s who have the ability to excel in any offensive scheme… Gabbert has a very good arm and can make all the throws on offense! So why you would think he can’t make the 20+ yd out or the 25 yd cross or the 9 route is beyond me… He’s demonstarted he has the arm to make all those throws! Ponder maybe not as much, but arm strength is really over-rated! And if thats your big concern w/ Ponder I think your severely mistaken and not very football intelligent either. Most throws, even the 7-9 routes on the route tree are at most 40 yd throws where accuracy at 40 yds is far more important than the ability to throw 70 yds. Its how far you can throw w/ accuracy thats far more important then just distance.
When you catch up let me know… I know this is a little much for you to comprehend!
BTW – If arm strength is a pre-requisite for Whiz’s offense he should have dumped Leinart as soon as he arrived!!! but he didn’t and that poor decision is close to costing him his job!
No wonder the Cards are so disfunctional… They’re trying to fit square pegs into round holes!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
All right, those replies in the middle are getting shrunken down WAY too far
I have some thoughts on the idea of the Cardinals returning 20 of their 22 starters next year, and I’m surprised no one else has commented this way yet.
Using the tenders offered to our RFA’s as a gauge of interest, we’ll be returning 4 of 5 starters on the offensive line. We’ll have a different tight end starting, and probably a different fullback. Dan Williams will be the NT. CB2 may be a different player. I also expect changes at OLB, and not necessarily just if we draft Von Miller. I don’t think I know anyone who wasn’t disappointed by Joey Porter last year. He may make the team, but we’ll see his role reduced.
The Steelers returned 20 of their 22 starters after winning the Super-Bowl and didn’t make the playoffs the next year. We’ll see changes.
QB Pick
Von Miller should be our pick in the first round, with a pick up of a FA QB after the draft. Gabbert’s completion percentage of 63.4, with a 6.71 yards per pass average screen average at the NFL level. Newton’s stats are better in the toughest division in college ball, all with one year’s experience, a national championship, and a load of garbage on his back.
Newton
Still lacks nearly everything that you require to be a successful QB at the NFL level.
He lacks consistent accuracy. he needs to rebuild his footwork and mechanics. He comes from a one read and run offense at Auburn.
He had good “stats” becasue opposition consistently put 9 in the box leaving him with 1 v 1 matchups on the outside on nearly every throw he made.
Newton is my 6th ranked QB in this draft. Don’t see him ever amounting into anything worthwhile.
That much we agree on...
I wouldn’t touch him till round 3 or later… I have Gabbert and Ponder as my top 2!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Ridiculous
While you do a very good job of talking down Newton, he is the most physically gifted passer in this draft and it’s not even close. Cam Newton has incredible size for the position, the ability to stretch a defense vertically with his cannon for arm, the mobility to escape initial and secondary pass rush pressure, pocket presence and a charisma that lights up a room. Oh, and by the way Newton has won every where he has stepped onto the football field (30 TD’s passing and 20 rushing to go along with a Heisman at Auburn in the top football Conference in college football).
One of the main traits, attributes and characteristics that I look for in a potential Franchise QB - is can the player put the team on his back and carry it.The tape indicates such for Cam Newton.
The guy you are touting as the guy, Gabbert…….. where is the tape or stats that demonstrate that Blaine Gabbert can carry a team! Gabbert didn’t do it at Mizzou. What makes you so sure that Gabbert can do it in the N FL? I did not see the skills that transition to the NFL as a passer, especially as a player can threaten the field deep consistently.
Pretty much everything they said about Vince Young...
But he just got his coach fired and got himself released!!!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I love how
When types such as yourself conviently leave out certain facts when discussing players so as to make your argument/position look legitimate.
You should know,since you invoked Vince Young’s name, that he infact saved Jeff Fisher’s, inspite of Jeff Fisher, twice during the his time as Titans QB. In 2009, the Titans were 0-6 and VY led the team on a 8 game streak to finish the season 10-6 and barely missing the playooffs. In 0-7, Young led the team on a 6 games streak. VY is 31-17 and a starting QB in this league. For the record Jeff Fisher never wanted VY. Fisher wanted, and how ironic it is, Matt Leinart (side note: I told any and everyone that Leinart would be a bust here at ROTB). And Jeff Fisher got himself fired by sticking with a loser/ washed up Kerry Collins and then trying to hire his son, who has no coaching experience, to be on the Titans staff. Bud Adams has a no nepotism policy with his club.
Like I have said, you are either not very knowledgeable or bored or both and so you are on a another teams blog spouting BS. I’m fine with the spouting part——— the BS—— not so much. You have every right to trash players. The only thing I ask is that you bring some semblance of real football talk to the table……..cause it an’t happening right now.
Young was forced down Fishers throat from the beginning!
Fisher wouldn’t have had to deal w/ Young or any of his histrionics! So I don’t think Young ever saved Fishers job! And it did in fact come down to one or the other leaving… And ended up being both! I think Young cost Fisher his job, by virtue of the fact that Young was foced upon Fisher!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
All my friends that are Cards fans would disagree w/ you...
Ones a sports anchor and another played College ball… They both think I’m pretty knowledgable, so I can easily live w/ it if you don’t! Your entitled to your opinion…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Blah, blah, blah
All my friends that are Cards fans would disagree w/ you… Ones a sports anchor and another played College ball… They both think I’m pretty knowledgable, so I can easily live w/ it if you don’t! Your entitled to your opinion
You, your anchor friend and your college football “buddy” are idiots.
And to further my point...
The one tossing out the insults is the one claiming some kind of higher intelligence! Apparently your not aware that a major pitfall of illiteracy and lack of intelligence in general is the need to toss insults thinking that in some way it wins them arguments, when in fact it only proves the opposite! So go around tossing those insults cuz you can’t make a reasonable argument, it only proves the one w/ little knowledge is Cardsfan81!!!!! LMFAO!!!!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Settle down Stroh's
You have been given every opportunity to explain to this audience why you think your guy (Blain Gabbert) isa viable 1st Rd. pick You have failed miserably. Your “only” contribution to this discussion is to say that player A has off-the-charts physical ability. Please direct to video where Gabbert was a dominant player from a production standpoint. I have yet to see it. Gabbert was pedestrian at Mizzou. I keep reading and hereing Gabbert’s safer. You don’t win games and ultimately NFL Championships with the “safe” pick. See Ben Roethlisberger (ouch that hurt).
You are not even a Cardinals fan (not that disqualifies you from this blog) and so as an “outsider” I expected more substance. I am disappointed.
When I present an argument for my position of QB, I looked at player A’s physical abilty vs production in sum and then the intangibles angle/aspect. That is what great NFL personnel type do.
To put a bow tie on this baby, I think the Cardinals will select Blaine Gabbert in April’s Draft…….. and I think It will be a huge mistake.
I'm the only one giving substance!
I point out what I think and all I hear from you is Gabbert is WC QB or doesn’t fit or just plain is a bad QB… Come w/ some reasons why you say that!
Go to the converstaion above a little… I gave all the analysis you could ask for… You gave NONE!
Tell me why, don’t just say his film doen’t exist… He won 9 game w/ less talent than Daniel had around him. Has an elite arm, good accuracy… All his negatives are teachable, reading defenses, going thru progressions, mechanics! you give me he’s a bad fit, but no reasoning… I’ll be waiting!!!
Gotta step it up to keep up…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Settle down....
Your the one tossing insults and calling names! Seems your the one who needs to settle!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
And for the record
I don’t think Newton is a good fit in AZ. Why? I don’t trust this coaching staff to develop a guy. The reality is, the Cardinals have not developed a QB since Neil Lomax was under center. What would be the point in drafting a Franchise guy?
Whisenhunt wants a veteran…….the Bidwill’s want a rookie so they don’t have to pay the big bucks. And they will get their way. A rookie wage scale is coming in the next CBA…….whenever a CBA is agreed upon.
Stop with the Bidwells stuff
Michael Bidwell has been willing to hand out money when it’s needed. Ever since he’s taken more control of the Cardinals, they’ve started to spend a lot more.
By saying the Bidwells are cheap, you’re showing me that you don’t know that much about the Cardinals, and are just listening to what ESPN is telling you. Oh, and I trust Coach Whiz because he got us to the Superbowl. Whether you choose to or not is besides the point, but stop bringing up old jokes about the Bidwells and stuff like that. It’s annoying and dumb.
I have forgotten more you know
First I don’t watch or respect BSPN on the radio, print or TV side. #2, Micheal Bidwill is in charge ceromonially. The Bidwill’s were recently in Missouri to “workout” Gabbert. Tell me what’s wrong with that picture. Football decisisons should be made by the football staff and busisness decisions are made by the FO.
Oh, and I trust Coach Whiz because he got us to the Superbowl. Whether you choose to or not is besides the point, but stop bringing up old jokes about the Bidwells and stuff like that. It’s annoying and dumb.
This is a football discussion. Your reply is emotional. You imply that Wiz is the only reason the Cardinals got to the SB. Again, emotion and nothing of note to chew on.
The Bidwill’s are the greatest owners in the NFL. You happy, Ha!
No there were not there to work him out.
The staff was there to work him out. Mike flew the plane and the the coaching and the ownership was all on their way back from the Owners meetings in Nawlins. So instead of putting on another flight to take Mike and Bill back to Arizona, they stopped in Mizzou with the likes of Whis, Graves and Keim to workout Gabbert.
Let me replace "ESPN"
With “The media”. Some media outlets are fine, but others randomly attack the Bidwells when they have no right to. Michael Bidwell is not ceremonially in charge. He has the most power right now. Are the Bidwells as a family still in charge? Yes. Is Michael Bidwell slowly being handed the organization? Yes.
You may be right. My reply is emotional. But unlike you, I’m not going to quit supporting him after one bad season. He had two fantastic ones before that. I’m going to give him one more season to prove himself, and I’m actually going to stick with supporting him, and not jump off the Bandwagon.
The Bidwells may not be the best owners, but they sure as heck aren’t the worst. I’d rather have them over many other owners. I think we’re lucky to have them as owners, because at least they don’t make some of the mistakes other owners do, or mess with the team for the sake of financial gain or stuff like that.
They are cheap however
They are still not paying money when they can.
The did not pony up for Karlos after the staff had come out numerous times and said he was a key aspect of the team and they really wanted to keep him, that is why they franchised him twice. I would be surprised if we ponied up long term deals to both Campbell and Fitz at some stage this season, one of the two is likely to not be here. The Bidwills are very unlikely to pay two long term deals this season.
And Whis is not going to be fired even if we go 3-13 next season, because he has just signed a big fat extension prior to last season. The Bidwills are not going to buy him out for $10-15M and pay another head coach $5M.
This
Is a football discussion, skii. They paid the wrong people. Darnell Dockett is a fine 3- technique but can’t live up to his contract, A-Dub is on way down. If they don’t win games Fitz is out and headed to Haley in KC and there has been no commitment made to Boobs (who deserves better treatment).
The more things change, the more they remain the same.
I agree in part
Darnell should not have been paid with the thought of moving to a 34 defense. A really good interior penetrator, but he is never going to be an effective two gap guy, and that is hurting us.
I think the A-Dub contract was fine, he was used horribly last season by Davis, trying to match him up 1 v 1 vs receivers and Tight Ends, that is not where he is successful and the injury can not have helped at all.
Who is Boobs? Deuce? I don’t think a high draft pick like Deuce who has played his entire career as an under acheiver deserves “better treatment”
I have to wonder if our front office and coaching staff is just that “slow” in who they are going to give long term deal to or whether a money is the big issue behind it, and word is coming down from on high, they obviously have to OK the contract. Darnell is obviously a fan favorite and I would assume he brings more profile, and sells more merchandise for this franchise. More exposure and bigger jersey sales = more $$$ for the owners, regardless of their on field impact.
I'm sorry bro'
Steve Breaston has been affectionately called Boobs from time to time by some fans on this blog.
I agree with your point about the merchandise and Dockett. Adrian Wilson has not been a great cover guy for at least the past 3 seasons. Part of it’s due to being muscled up and the other part is his health. Wilson is a guy that is more comfortable buzzing down into the box.
I agree Breaston deserves better
But at least it shows smart management. I hope they have told him internally that he has been a huge asset to the team, and that they respect him as a football player, becasue he deserves at least that.
But we cannot afford to divvy up two big contracts to WR’s with the numerous other holes on our team and an imperative piece of our defense (A better 2 gapper and far more important than Dockett IMO) Calais Campbell coming off contract after the 2011 season.
I'm aware this is a football discussion
Thanks for letting me know, though…?
All I’m saying is the Bidwells have gotten better with paying people. You said they were cheap. I’m saying they’ve gotten better.
I don't mean to be a jerk skii
You ruffled my feathers a little bit.
Your feathers are easy to ruffle.
Do you always get so mean when someone disagrees with you?
Oh wait, this is football bro.
by Jesse Reynolds on Mar 27, 2011 11:55 PM MDT up reply actions
They matched Miamis offer
How is that not “ponying up”
They paid Dockett, which he deserved. They also paid Warner, Fitz, and Adub. The old Cards never use to pay to maintain top talent.
Not the same ole Cards.
by Jesse Reynolds on Mar 27, 2011 11:54 PM MDT up reply actions
Matched
But with the tax difference they did not match. Dansby is more valuable to our defense than Dockett ever will be. The versatility he provided as a LB was incredible he was one of the few LB’s you could literally ask to do anything and he could do it. Man Coverage on TE’s, Blitz off the edge, Blitz up the middle. Drop into a short zone, drop into a deep zone. Line up as a safety and play a zone coverage scheme from there. Play laterally spying a QB. Dansby can literally do it all as a LB, it may not show up on the stat sheet, but he is one of very few who can do that. He should still be here, sadly he is not because the team payed a guy who is a poor fit for the scheme, but sold more mechandise and was a bigger fan favorite.
To me with the background that Whis has come from (Strict two gappers on the DL and basing the D around LB’s) screams over the head influence.
Should have signed Dansby and let Dockett walk.
Agree on Dansby...
Trying to replace w/ Washington is fine but would have been easier to get a 5 tech or 34 DE than a Standout ILB like Dansby…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Even if we still drafted Washington
The Duo of Dansby and Washington in the middle would have been quality. An finding a good 2 gap 5 tech DE is not the hardest task in the world. Brett Keisal was not exactly a highly touted prospect, but he is one of the best 2 gap DE"s in the 34 in the league.
Dansby and Washington
Yeah that would have been an outstanding duo… Washington has excellent speed to play the Weak ILB spot and chase the ball. 5 Techs are not hard to find at all… 6’3+ 290-310 lbs and stout vs the run… Not usually called on to be pass rushers, but if they have any its a benefit!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I am going to have to disagree
Dansby was a good LB, but Dockett is one of the best, if not the best 3-4 DE in the league. Do you remember the Superbowl? I sure do.
Dansby wasn’t staying, that’s why they had to franchise him twice (which was very expensive). I rather Dansby over Lenon any day, but he was offered elite LB money and he isn’t an elite LB.
by Jesse Reynolds on Mar 28, 2011 8:02 PM MDT up reply actions
Exactly
Karlos Dansby was a good player, but Dockett was one of the best at his position. You never, never, never let someone of his caliber walk.
Oh, and Karlos Dansby is the highest paid LB’er in the league, and if I’m not mistaken, isn’t he the highest paid LB’er in NFL history? Do you really think the Cardinals should’ve paid him that money? Even if he was elite, there was no way the Cardinals should’ve/would’ve paid that money to him.
Right now, our LB’er corps are average. Add in Von Miller, and we’ve got a young, great LB’er corps to look forward to for the future.
Karlos was an ELITE player
One of the 4 or 5 best ILB/43 OLB in the business. He has a versatility that no other LB in the league save maybe Urlacher can boast.
He deserved to be paid as the highest LB in the league (BTW his deal in terms of money/year was not bigger than a guy like Ray Lewis)
You let a great player walk if they are of horrible schmatic fit. You don’t play Dwight Freeney as a 34 DE or 34 OLB becasue he fits in neither of those spots schematically. You don’t put a 34 rush LB at 43 OLB if he cannot cover, and not a 43 End if he is not a great hold the point run defender. You don’t put a gap shooting 43 UT at 2 gap 34 end.
We did that last and then paid him like a king for it. Massive mistake.
Right now our LB’s are among the worst in the league. Lenon is not a 34 ILB, refuses to take on blocks is slow to react and poor in coverage. There is a reason he has been released from so many LB needy teams. Washington is great potential, but still needs to produce on the field. Add in Miller he would be in the same boat, as is OBScho. Haggans and Porter are past it.
Imagine the differnce if we kept a 2 gap end we let walk (Smtih) and starting Campbell while letting Dockett walk)
Smith – Williams – Campbell
Miller – Dansby – Washington – OBScho
That is a great 34 front 7, Three men on the DL that play 2 gaps, but can maintain blocks and push the pocket. Four highly athletic LB’s al of whom are capable of playing both north south and east west. They may not be huge, but with three 2 gap players on the DL they are going to be playing clean and in space. Tremendous front 7 potential. Far more so than.
Dockett- Williams – Campbell
OBScho – Lenon – Washington – Miller
Two 2 gappers on the DL, but one 1 gapper who makes it hard to play tot he scheme becasue of his freelancing style. 3 very athletic LB’s and one guy who is a backup at best becasue he does not play north south very well and is not a great lateral player..
Signing Dockett long-term over signing Karlos long term was a massive mistake.
I agree that he was good
But it was the right decision keeping Dockett. He’s a leader, and probably in the Top 3 of his position. Now, after a down year, it’s easy to go back and say, “Oh, we should’ve kept so and so, and let so and so go”, but at the time, when the deal was given, most people were happy with it.
Also, most people here agreed that Karlos Dansby might’ve been overpaid at the time he signed his deal. Do I think losing him was a loss? Absolutely. Do I think we should’ve signed him over Dockett? No, I don’t. I’d rather have kept both of them, but Dockett was literally our #1 priority.
Oh, and our LB’ers may be the worst, but they’re young, and they’ve got a future.
Daryl Washington-O’Brien Schofield-Possibly Von Miller
They’re going to good if we get Von Miller.
So you are willing to sacrifice
An entire schematic approach for one player. Dockett could have had 12 sacks this past season and I would be saying the same thing. He is detrimental to this defense becasue he is a freelancer. He plays one gap and downhill all the time, often taking himslef out of plays, and leaving his work on the plate of LB’s who are barely capable of doing their job let alone someone elses. The 34 works best when you have three guys playing 2 gaps each on the DL. Occupying blockers and letting the LB’s make the plays. It is the foundation that the Steelers 34 is built from.
The fact Dockett was the #1 priority scares me, becasue he is such a horrible schematic fit for a 34 defense.
If we get Miller we still need another starter at ILB, I am not sure I can take another season of the horrible play of Paris Lenon. Refusing to take on blockers. Plying a a square of 5 yards each way. Missing tackles. Just overall horrible.
And if people honestly think Dockett is a top 3 34 DE in the league, I am not sure what to think
He is not even clsoe. A hugely talented player, but he is not built to play end in a 34 defense. As a 43 UT maybe the best in the league. When you want a player to shoot a gap and play in the backfield then Dockett is probably one of the best in the league to do that.
A 34 DE plays gap control, 2 gap football. Dockett has proven himself unable to do that.
How has he proven that he is unable to play 3-4?
He was double-teamed all year, and I’m pretty sure he still managed to turn out decent stats. Plus, he made the Pro Bowl too.
Pro Bowl
Is for stat junkies, like the media… Dockett should not be a 34 DE, by any stretch, IMO… In a 34 D he is best as a situaltional pass rusher, but he isn’t a good fit as a 34 5tech DE… He’s just not. And Whiz or the DC is spending alot of time scheming to keep him from compromising the integrity of the D.
Like I said Packers went thru this w/ Corey Williams, and he’s probably more suited as a 34 DE than Dockett is.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Stats don't matter here
He is going to put up stats BECASUE he plays out of the scheme. He is a great penetrator. He does that with the best in the league. But it is becasue he freelances (And shoots gaps instead of playing 2 gap football) that he puts up those stats. Our team defense is likely better with a DE there playing 2 gap football, playing discipined, and letting the LB’s make the plays, than it is with Dockett playing against the scheme shooting gaps and letting the LB’s get hung out to dry on the 65-70% of snaps where he takes himself out of the play.
He can play in a 34, but he is horror fit in the 34 and no successful 34 defense is going to have a gap shooting end that plays as reckless and as undisciplined in terms of gap control as Dockett does.
Ty Warren, Aaron Smith, Brett Keisal, Richard Seymour, Haloti Ngata. Some of the best 34 Ends of late. They all put stats behind them and played great 2 gap football, put the team ahed of themselves and were able to anchor great defenses.
As a player and a gap shooter Dockett is very good, put him in a 43 where the scheme wants him to play 1 gap football he is going to be a great player and one of the best at the position. Put him a 34 DE where he is required to play 2 gaps and hold the point vs the run, he is probably not even in the top 10 34 DE’s in the league.
So is every player the Cards let go
Elite? Dansby was not elite. His numbers never were, he wasn’t good at taking on blocks and was much a free lancer as DD is.
I have specific memories of Dansby taking plays off. I don’t know who you have been watching these last four years but the guy I did was only good until payday came. Lucky for us the franchise tag made it payday ever day.
by Jesse Reynolds on Mar 29, 2011 9:40 PM MDT up reply actions
Jesse summed up my thoughts
Dansby was a good player, but I think that since he’s not on the team anymore, you’re hyping him up. It’e easy to talk about him as one of the best, and it’s easy to forget about all of his weaknesses now that you aren’t watching anymore.
Just because he’s gone, it looks like you’re hyping him up. He was good, but the way you’re making him sound, he was a Hall of Fame LB’er who was the best at everything he did.
His weaknesses
Very few and far between, taking on blockers was one, but he is one of the best in the NFL among LB’s at avoiding blockers, making himself small and skinny though the LOS to get through clean. He was often sometimes overaggressive, overrunning some plays.
But the fact he was so versatile and we could line up up 10 yards deep and having him playing zone coverage or line up up as a wide end out of a 3 point stance and rush the passer, and he could do both well.
Dansby as a player was at least as good as Dockett. He was also a far better fit in our scheme and that is where this started.
Dansby should have been the option over Dockett mainly becasue Dockett is a horrible fit for a 34 defense.
His impact was not on the stat sheet
His impact was in being one of the two or three Linebackers in the NFL that could do anything you asked of him. His impact was that he was tremendous in coverage vs TE’s something that was horrible exposed this season without him.
He is an elite player.
And no not every player the Cards let go was great. Boldin was becomining more and mroe injury prone and it was the smart move to trade him. Rolle was a horrily poor tackler and still had not grasped the mental aspects of playing S, I was glad he left and even more happy that Rhodes came in his place.
I think Cutting Leinart was a poor choice, but I don’t think he was ever going to be “the future” and the money might have been the decider.
Not everyone the Cards let go is Elite, I have never made any statement close to that.
I have only made the statement that Dansby IS an elite Linebacker, he may not have filled the stat sheet a whole lot (But he did fill every coumn available, Tackles, Sacks, Stuffs, FF’s, FR’s, PD’s, INT’s et al). And I stand by my opinion that he still is an elite LB.
He is also far better suited to playing in this defesne than Dockett is. You have the choice between two amazingly talented players, both very godd at what they do, both boredering on or being elite at their positions. But one is a great fit for your defense and the other is a horrible fit. It should be clear which player you resign.
We failed to see through that and signed the wrong guy long term.
We will have to disagree
I remember a pay day seeker who was prone to taking plays off. I never once thought of Dansby as elite. Versatile, yes. But versatility doesn’t make you an elite athlete.
He wasn’t a game changer and elite players are.
But maybe it’s the word that is the problem. The word elite to me is much like genius, way over used. Belicheck isn’t a genius in my opinion, Dansby isn’t elite. Now Hawkins and Manning, that’s a different story.
by Jesse Reynolds on Mar 30, 2011 7:21 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Dansby
The problem I see w/ Dansby is that the Cards slapped him w/ the franchise tag and then didn’t lock him up long term! Why the heck would you do that? Makes no sense… You decide he’s one of your best players, but then you fail to lock him up? DOn’t get that at all…
Packers placed the franchise on Corey Williams one year, but they knew they didn’t want him long term. He was a situational pass rusher as a DT. And damn good at it. But you don’t give franchise money to a situational pass rusher (sound familiar)… And we got a 2nd rd pick for him. He went to cleveland as a 34 DE played 2 seasons and got traded back to a 43 team to play DT AGAIN…
Dansby should have been locked up long term when you franchised him!! not doing so got you Paris Lenon, whom the Packers released about 5 years ago!!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Oh they tried
They really tried. Gotta know the team history dude.
by Jesse Reynolds on Mar 29, 2011 9:41 PM MDT up reply actions
Plus
DD is more than a situational pass rusher. DD’s problem is he only tends to show up on big games.
by Jesse Reynolds on Mar 29, 2011 9:41 PM MDT up reply actions
And the fact that
He is ahorribel fit for the 34 defense, refuses to play 2 gap football. Takes himself out of plays by just rushing downhill into the backfield.
Amazingly talented. Great pass rusher. Horrible 34 end.
I just wonder
If you watch the same games I do.
by Jesse Reynolds on Mar 30, 2011 7:16 PM MDT up reply actions
That's what I'm wondering
I have no clue how you can say you watch football, and at the same time call Dockett “horrible”.
Not a horrible player
He attracts a lot of attnetion, he is doubled often. He splits double teams very well. He is capable of creating havo in the backfield.
Only problem is he is not capable of playing the 2 gap, edge setting, point holding role of a 34 end.
Play him insde in a 43 defense and he is the best player at his position probably. He is effective as an individual in the 34 defense, but it is at the detriment of the team.
He is a bad 34 end becasue he does not perform the role you want a 34 end to perform.
As I have said numerous times and it seems to be overlooked every time, not sure why, maybe blind love of Darnell. But tremendous player, great pass rusher, very disruptive. But a horror fit for what you want in a 34 end.
See that's the problem
I think it’s word usage. DD is not horrid as a 34 DE. Bad word. Yes, he isn’t great against the run but he is great against everything else. So… bad versus run but great versus pass, tackles in the back field, great penetration, and consumes two blocks regularly. I just don’t see how that makes him a “horrid” 34 DE
by Jesse Reynolds on Mar 30, 2011 11:57 PM MDT up reply actions
He RARELY consumes two blocks. If ever
Becasue he plays 1 gap, if teams try to block him with two guys he often goes between them. This then leads to a LOT of big plays becasue he takes himself out of the play in doing so. I have NEVER and I mean that literally, NEVER seen Dockett hold the point of attack playing 2 gap football as a 34 End, and that is the primary job of the position.
He is able to produce in a 34 defense becasue he plays away from the scheme.
Darnell Dockett is not even close to the top 10 34 DE’s in the league.
I've seen it once or twice.
Primarily when he shifts to the middle of our line, but khodder’s right here. Dockett isn’t fit for our defense.
Disagree
On not a being a top 3-4 DE. I will agree though he would make one hell of a 4-3 DE. Scouts Inc considers him good against the run.
“He is an effective pass-rusher and plays the run well. He has good size, strength and quickness on the inside. He reads blocking schemes quickly and does a good job of leveraging to the play.”
He is a beast of an athlete. Period.
by Jesse Reynolds on Mar 31, 2011 3:34 PM MDT up reply actions
Plus
He is considered a top 3 DE by ESPN.
Not that ESPN or Scouts Inc carries that much weight.
by Jesse Reynolds on Mar 31, 2011 3:35 PM MDT up reply actions
One more
“He has prototypical size and speed for the position but is somewhat limited due to some tightness in his hips that make it difficult for him to man up on the more athletic tight ends in the league.”
Scouts Inc has Dansby rated as the 7th best LB in the game.
" He hits with authority both when neutralizing blocks as well as when tackling the ball carrier. He can fit in either a four or a three linebacker scheme and as enough athleticism to play on the outside or the inside."
by Jesse Reynolds on Mar 31, 2011 3:38 PM MDT up reply actions
Tight in the hips.....
Eh…I don’t see it, and the fact remains he was used a whole heap on TE’s in 2009. It allowed Adrian to play more roving style defense and in more “loose” zones that allow him to use his instincts and make plays on the ball.
Go rewatch our win over the Giants in 2009. We were able to do so much defensively and let Adrian play his instinct game in short zones and read and react situations becaseu we we covering Kevin Boss with Dansby. Boss finished that day with just 3 grabs for 3 yards on 4 targets after Dansby had covered him the entire day.
Having a guy that could cover the TE effectively allowed Adrian to do a whole lot fo stuff behind him in confusing and harming the play of Eli Manning.
Flashforward to 2010 and despite the injury, Adrian was already struggling in coverage on TE’s and our defense lost a lot of its impetus that Adrian brings when he roams the middle.
Schematics. Dansby provided a hell of a lot more for our scheme than Darnell ever will.
Yeah because Heap
Is such a physically dominate TE… Or not.
Dansby isn’t elite. It’s just that simple. Dockett, while having some bad techniques has the physical ability to do the job. It’s as simple as that.
Plus, coverage schemes and injuries last year played a stronger role in our D’s demise than losing Dansby.
by Jesse Reynolds on Apr 1, 2011 11:25 AM MDT up reply actions
I agree that Dansby isn't elite
But he is right on the verge, a legitimate top 5 player at his postion, and if you don’t think his ability to actually do it all in the middle of the defense (including cover, which both Paris Lenon and Gerald Hayes are TERRIBLE at) didn’t considerably affect our defense last year, then you just weren’t paying attention to the games.
We got slaughtered up the middle, and it wasn’t all about Adrian Wilson’s degradation, or Kerry Rhodes’s inconsistencies, both of which would had been better concealed if we still had Karlos in the middle (like Khodder said).
Socuts INC and ESPN
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Really anyone pays attention to them at all. Really.
Not that ESPN or Scouts Inc carries that much weight.
Exactly, so why are you bringing them up? Watch the games; he’s terrible against the run. Or if you want to go the stats route, at least use meaningful stats from sites that breakdown players on a play by play basis, I guess? (FO, PFF, ANS, etc.)
And why would you put him as a 4-3 DE? You run into the same problems, unless you’re Indy. He’s a 4-3 UT through and through.
While they aren't the be all end all
They still are more legitimate views than some fan on a forum.
by Jesse Reynolds on Apr 1, 2011 11:26 AM MDT up reply actions
Actually, no.
Depends on the fan, obviously. But they’re full of bullshit and lies. Nobody should take them or the people that regurgitate their garbage seriously.
front 7
Smith – Williams – Campbell
Miller – Dansby – Washington – OBScho
I don’t know that I call it great, but much better than you currently have. And great potential at least!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Smith was Huge our Superbowl season
Then we let him walk. He had a huge year as a 34 DE, he now has another shot to prove his stuff in the Texans 34. Watch for him whenever you watch the Texans in 2011.
Horrible schematic fit
Dockett is a great gap shooter, but he is not a great 34 end. He is a gap shooter who hurts the overall defense becasue he does not fit within a scheme.
Watch this team get gashed by screens, draws and delays over the past two years. Pause the game and locate Dockett. Most if not ll the time he has run himself 5 yards deep in the backfield and has taken himself completely out of the play.
In a 43 defense that allows one of its tackles to penetrate and play with free liscence he would be a tremendous player. In a scheme that requires a DE to play two gaps and play disciplined football, Dockett is a horrible fit.
I would take, Ngata, Campbell, A.Smith, Keisal, Pickett, C.Jenkins, Luis Castilo over Dockett and that is off the top of my head, at best the 8th best 34 end in the league. Becasue of his schematic value decreasing tremendously form a 43 D, or one that allows him to play 1 gap.
Dockett has Corey Williams written all over him...
Only better AND worse! LOL
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Far better player
Dockett is a far better player, and becasue of that he can survive in a 34 which is what makes the situation worse.That and the extension we should have never given him.
Dockett far better
Better pass rusher, but worse 34 DE, IMO… Williams could play 34 DE schematically, just didn’t make plays in it. Cleve gave us a 2nd AND paid him 7M per season to be a misplaced 34 DE… They traded him cuz they realized he wasn’t a playmaker, like they were paying him to be… Both are better 43 under DT, but Dockett is a better player overall.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I still like Locker
More than most. And I think Mallett is the most polished passer of anyone in the draft (Though the off field and mental issues are there)
I think Ponder is underrated, look at how he played in 2009 and you see a guy who could really have a large amount of success at the NFL level.
I agree with you
I actually sort of wanted us to draft him in the 1st Round sometime last season, but then I saw what other areas we needed.
Now, if we can get Jake Locker in the 2nd Round, that would be a perfect-case scenario. But if he does fall late into the 1st Round, Seattle will probably take him.
But he’s a pro to trading down: We get some extra picks, and we might be able to grab him later on in the 1st Round.
What about Malletts height!
That and his SLOW feet are going to get him killed in the NFL! Never been a good QB in the NFL over 6’6…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Sure you Locker
Jake Locker is the most inaccurate passer from the pocket in this draft accroding to every draft analyst or talking head in the country. You like him though.
Here’s a question: What the difference between Cam Newton and Jake Locker to you? Oh, that’s right Newton is inaccurate.
Here’s a dose of reality……. Jake Locker 17 TD’s vs 19 picks in 2010 at Washington. And while we are talking, Jake Locker consistently melted down in big games and lacked the ability to put the University of Washington football team on his back. I’m not trying to change your mind——just giving you the facts.
One more thing on Jake Locker—— his HC at Washington——Steve Sarkisisan—-is a former QB coach at USC and with the Raiders. Jake Locker has had the benifit of pro coaching and regressed as a passer!
Jake Locker will be a NFL bust at QB. Locker’s a more athletic version of Kyle Boller.
I would put a large sum of money
On Locker to be picked at 10th overall to Washington. If I had money to spare.
He's also a popular pick w/ Seattle for obvious reasons...
Ponder is the better QB IMO… Locker’s the better athlete if that means anything at QB!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Revenge of the Birds
Related FanShots on Revenge of the Birds
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Shutdown Corner - NFL - Yahoo! Sports
- Former high-school star Brian Banks does serious time on trumped-up charge, now hopes for an NFL shot
- Former ‘idiot kicker’ Mike Vanderjagt in trouble after accosting junior-high heckler
- Adrian Peterson blows teammates away in footraces; appears to be on the mend
- UPDATE: Charlie Sheen didn’t buy Lawrence Taylor’s Super Bowl ring
- Alex Smith gets blown up by Jon Beason over Cam Newton comments
