Kolb
by KDean75 on May 16, 2011 8:50 AM MDT
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PrintI found a breakdown on Kolb on pro football focus, Kevin Kolb: Schaub-like or Feely-ish? .
I think it's pretty interesting.
I would say that the conclusion follows my thought on Kolb as well. I just don't know if he's a good quarterback or not. He did have the Dallas game where he was playing with scrubs, but he also seemed to do better on games where he was starting and was prepared.
However, the Cards will still have a sub-par or average at best offensive line. I don't think the price to get Kolb is worth this much uncertainty.
I'm feeling that the price of Orton is more reasonable and will have the same upside. Keep in mind the large pay raise that Kolb will be expecting as well. That is not a throwaway factor, large salary plus the price in draft picks/players, I don't think it adds up.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Revenge of the Birds' (ROTB) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of ROTB's editors.
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My view on Kolb:
I think he is better than any QB we had last season, and that’s the extent of my willingness to compliment him.
I don’t know who the answer at QB is, I know I don’t think it’s anyone on our current roster, and i don’t think Kolb is the answer unless we get him for a single 2nd round pick. I would prefer Orton over Kolb by miles, and I would prefer Bulger over Kolb by a few feet.
With either of these 2 options, however, we still have a long term need, which means if we don’t either determine that Skelton will be a franchise QB (I don’t think he will be) or draft a franchise QB in the next 2 drafts, we will still be missing the most critical part of a team.
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
I voted yes
I think the current coaching staff need to win some games this next season to feel secure about keeping their jobs. Kolb has the most upside…. Trade for Kolb Patch up the O-line as well as we can through free agency and with a little luck the Cards take the NFC west. If this young defense reaches its potential the cards have a shot.
If Kolb turns out to be the answer it will have been a steal to get him for a single 1st round pick.
Remember what the bears paid for Cutler?
by CardsDefense on May 16, 2011 11:47 AM MDT up reply actions
Cutler trade
Seems like Eagles and Broncos fans expect the Cardinals to pony up like Chicago did for either Kolb or Orton. I don’t agree with either for that kind of sell out. Orton certainly won’t require it regardless of how badly Denver fans want to delude themselves. I can see them paying out for Kolb for fear of missing their chances elsewhere by dragging things out.
IF
Kolb has nothing more than Leinart which we ditched this time last year, if we cant get Orton for a 2nd or Palmer for the same, then we may as well give Skelton another season, and if we pick in the top 5 again we will be building a new nucleus of talent for the long term
Holy crap, great link
I was trying to put together numbers like this for a FanPost but this is like twice the work done and then some!
I definitely think we need to address offensive line in addition to picking up a QB. There’s no sense in even adding one if we aren’t going to try and protect him better than we did last year.
Protecting the QB
The trouble with all the likely candidates is that none of them are mobile. It is imperative that they bolster the line regardless of who comes in.
I hate this
guy, but given what you said, is Vince Young an option?
Seriously, I hate him, but he is mobile, he can compete deep passes (which seems to be part of our offensive strategy), and I’m not sure there’s going to be a huge market for him meaning he’ll be cheap.
I don't like VY either
and I can’t imagine Whiz getting along with a guy like Young. If Leinart was too much drama for Whiz, can you imagine him putting up with all the baggage that Young brings to the table. Not to mention, Young is at his best he’s able to free lance and make plays outside of the system….another thing Whiz isn’t too high on. I don’t think Whiz would take on Young even if he came for free.
by Steamin' Beamin' on May 18, 2011 12:39 PM MDT up reply actions
I agree with Steamin' on VY.
Way too much baggage. Now as a third QB it wouldn’t be a bad option but only if his ego would allow that without becoming septic.
Kolb is pretty mobile
He’s not Young or Vick, or even Locker… But he has pretty good ability to slip outside the tackle box and extend plays w/ his feet. I would say a poor mans Rodgers is a fair comparison as far as mobility. He will extend w/ his feet to find a reciever and exhaust that option before pulling it down and running. A late 1st is easily a fair price for him, or a conditional trade.. Depending on the Cards record and/or Kolbs passer rating involving a 1st or 2nd and another choice later.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Don't need a scouting report.
Just watching him you can see he has the ability to move in the pocket, get outside the pocket and buy time w/ his feet.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Haven't seen a pro opinion yet that rates him highly for his mobility.
I will grant he’s the most mobile of the top candidates. Of course he hasn’t put in the playing time to take the beating the other guys have either.
From what I have seen he has some good mobility
I remember a play against the 49ers where he scrambled around a bit and got off a nice pass for a TD.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
I still think it all comes down to how we feel about Skelton
If we go get Kolb, then he’s the future and Skelton is nothing. Orton is most likely just a placeholder until Skelton is ready.
by Steamin' Beamin' on May 17, 2011 6:13 AM MDT reply actions
Broncos Fan here, with family in the valley.
I am always surprised by this attitude. Kyle is only 2 years older than Kolb, has thrown for 60(!) more TD’s and only 34 more INT’s in his Career.
Kolb 11 TDs 14 INT career
Orton 71 TDs 48 INT career
Remember also that Kolb has played for the Eagles, a pretty good team overall.
Kyle has gotten a bum rap in Denver, a rap that has little to do with Tim Tebow and almost everything to do with Broncos fans unfortunate tendency to compare every QB they get to John Elway. (to those poor saps detriment, as you can imagine) Even his inability to be “clutch” is exacerbated by the Broncos poor play. Their red zone and 3rd down woes didn’t magically appear with Orton, they have had the same issues since Jake Plummer retired.
Based on what I have seen of him so far, Skelton is a better QB than Kevin Kolb, and he did it while thrown in the fire as a Rookie, where Kolb had plenty of time to get acclimated behind Donovan McNabb. (Kolb played in 1 game as a rookie, completed no passes and was sacked twice)
In the end, Kyle Orton = Better price, better stats, better player than Kevin Kolb.
"I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious" Vince Lombardi
by CCBroncosFan on May 17, 2011 10:52 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1
I think Orton is better and a better value than Kolb. I will also stick to my guns and say Skelton will be our QB of the future. I don’t care about his comparisons to DA. He will be good.
If you don't have anything good to say about the Cards this season, you'd be correct.
by hevchv on May 17, 2011 6:17 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Orton would be a better choice than Kolb to me.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
I can see why people want Kolb
The allure is that he is viewed as a potential franchise QB. If you’re for him, it’s because you think he can be one of the best in the league, and stay there for a long time. If he reaches that potential, he will be a more valuable quarterback than Orton. Orton is a borderline Top 10 QB. This is very good, but he’s as high as he’s going to go. He has some flaws, and at this point in his career we can assume he’ll always have them.
It’s the same thing for you, actually. Would Denver be trading Kyle Orton if they didn’t think they had a potential franchise QB sitting right behind him?
Orton a top 10?
I’d like to hear your top 10 or 15 then?
by Steamin' Beamin' on May 18, 2011 12:47 PM MDT up reply actions
Statistically in the past few seasons
Orton has been in the top 10-15 QBs in the NFL. He has a strong TD to INT ratio and a pretty decent passer rating.
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
After digging further into the guy.,
Orton is the best value we could trade for this season.
A look at the stats then
15th in passer rating
17th in TD’s
4th in YPG (to negate the fact that he only played in 13 games)
T-8th in INT (among qualified QB’s)
24th in completion percentage
12th in YPA
When you really break it down his yards per game numbers are the only stat that suggest he’s a legit top 10 QB. And to further explain that you can look no further than his attempts per game (3rd in the NFL behind only big brother Manning and Brees). So basically he threw the ball a ton and completed a very pedestrian percentage of his passes.
by Steamin' Beamin' on May 19, 2011 12:42 PM MDT up reply actions
hte stats that matter
Rating—better than the average rating in the NFL
YPA—better than average in the NFL
INT—better than average in the NFL
No one is saying he’s a franchiose QB, we’re all saying he would be mroe than competent. I personally would rather have a known entity in Orton than pay an arm and a leg for an unknown in Kolb.
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
BTW
in 2009, Orton ranked in the top half in every statistic above.
For his career, he is a 59% passer, 80 QB rating, a 6.54 YPA and a 1.5:1 TD:INT ratio.
More than good enough to bridge the gap between now and whoever the franchise determines to be the long term starter over the next 2-3 years.
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
maybe we're just talking past each other
b/c your last line is one that I completely agree with. He’s no doubt an upgrade over what we’ve got now but I don’t see him as a “franchise” QB or a top 10 QB. In my mind there’s a big difference between “average” and top 10 and/or “franchise.”
Your last sentence seemed indicate that you see him as an upgrade but still a placeholder until we find or “franchise” guy and that’s exactly how I see him.
by Steamin' Beamin' on May 19, 2011 1:34 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't look at him as a franchise QB
I think there are only 5 or so true franchise QBs in the NFL. I view Orton as an above average starter in the NFL, who has the ability to keep the Cardinals competitive while they determin the long term solution.
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
When I say "borderline Top 10 QB" what exactly do you hear?
lol
He put up good numbers by throwing the ball a ton and came out of it with the 6th-best INT% in the league (not to mention 6th in 20+ yard completions and 3rd in 40+ but only 13th in total completed passes; imagine if he had had a full season). What would he be doing in Arizona? Throwing the ball a ton and not turning it over.
We all seem to agree here. Orton’s an above average starter (re: borderline Top 10) who can keep the Cardinals competitive for as long as we need him to. In other words, if/until we find that franchise guy.
by tw3kr on May 19, 2011 6:52 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
stats
A 59% completiong rate is below average and so is the 80 QB rating. Winning football is at least 60% and 90 QB rating. He’s good enough for you to win 7-9 games a year not get in the playoffs. Problem is thats also good enough to keep you from being able to draft a franchise QB! Its a deadend street.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Who says you have to draft a franchise QB in the first round?
Or that you have to draft one at all? is the 1% difference between 59% and 60% such a huge gap that Orton is now below average? Orton has been closer to a 90 passer rating than not for the past 2 seasons, what makes you think he won’t continue that trend? It’s been proven that you don’t need a franchise QB to win in this league if you have a strong defense-which the Cardinals are building, and might have already if Horton plays his pieces the right way.
There are MAYBE 5 franchise in the NFL, guys who will lead you to wins no matter what. So the other 27 teams should lay down and quit?
Orton is more than enough to get the cardinals into the playoffs while they determin who the long term answer is.
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
Let's look at some of the better QBs curently and where they were drafted:
Your boyfriend Aaron Rodgers, 24th overall, a 7-9 record is almost certain to draft before that.
Drew Brees, 2nd round, a 7-9 record could draft him in the first
Tom Brady, 6th round, not even going to say it.
Joe Flacco—18th, a 7-9 record would be right there.
Josh Freeman, 17th, 7-9 record is there
Tony Romo—undrafted, i think a 7-9 team could have had him
Now let’s look at some QBs drafted at the top of the draft that a 7-9 team wouldn’t be able to draft:
David Carr, no 1
JaMarcus Russel, no 1
Vince Young, no 3
Matt Leinart, no 10
Alex Smith, no 1
Ryan Leaf, no 2
Tim Couch, no 1
Akili Smith, no 1
Daunte Culpepper, no 7
Cade Mcnown, no 9
Byron leftwich, no 7
Joey Harrington, no 3
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
My point is
Drafting a QB is a crapshoot. I’m sure I’m the first person ever to realize that for every Manning, Rivers, Ryan, Bradford that we know are gogn to be good, there are 10 QBs that we think are gonig to be franchise guys who aren’t.
While an elite QB can mask deficiencies and make a team better (see Warner, Kurt), it’s not a necessity and there are a multitude of ways to find an above average QB who can make or break a team.
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
Drafting a QB outside the 1st is an absolute crapshoot.
The ones w/ talent don’t even make it beyong the top 10 picks in most cases. If you wanna play russian rouletted w/ your QB like you’ve been doing for a long time, you won’t sniff the playoffs anytime soon! What happened when you got one? You won, and when he left you lost! WHen you have a chance to take one you do it. Average QB’s don’t make or break teams… Average QB’s make teams Average! Unless you have a dominant D and strong run game, which the Cards do NOT and likely won’t soon, you have no chance of going anywhere.
But IIRC your the one who thinks Skelton is the future of the Cards… I guess when you haven’t had a franchise QB much you don’t know what one looks like!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I am quite confident Skelton is NOT the answer
And I’ve stated that quite vocally from the day he was drafted. If you actually read the posts I’ve written, you would see that my point about Orton is that he’s an above average QB, who can keep the Cardinals competitive until they find their long term solution. I haven’t suggested that Orton is going to be the difference maker and win the SB for the Cardinals at all.
You sem to be arguing that if we get a midle of the road QB and have an average record we’ll miss out on a franchise QB, when the truth is, there is absolutely no way to determine who will be a franchise QB and who won’t.
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
My mistake about Skelton..
I wouldn’t say Orton is above average. And I think getting him would prevent you from getting a Franchise QB. Thats my whole point.
I think you very much can determine which QB’s will be franchise guys. Just that everyone knows the importance of them, they get desperate to find one and they get drafted way too soon. Best time to find a franchise QB is when you don’t need one. Then you can be objective about if a guy is a Franchise QB.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
So if a QB is above the league average in almost every stat
that doesn’t make them above average? Fact remains there maybe 5 Franchise QBs, another 5 good to elite QBs, and another 5 or so who are above average. Orton is in the 3rd group.
If you can tell so easily who is going to be a franchise QB, why are there 1st round busts every single year? You don’t get drafted in the top ten if the team drafting you doesn’t think you are a franchise QB, and I pointed out at least 10 above who were drafted to be franchise QBs and weren’t. It’s a guess is all.
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
Stats
I don’t really care about stats. You can find stats to make anyone look good. Orton is in the 15-25 range of QB’s IMO. That makes him at best a very average QB. Just cuz he plays in a pass first offense and has some stats doesn’t make him anywhere near a top 10 QB. If he was then Denver would not be looking to unload him. Regardless of Tebow being there or not.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Choose your words wisely...
Warner’s practicing with the Cardinals out here, and if he decides to make a comeback I can’t wait to see him give the Packers another spanking.
Someone here...
Posted a fanpost showing the 2nd rd QB’s and the VERY high bust rate among them. Anything beyond the 1st is a complete guess and total luck. And its highly unlikely! Rodgers was in the conversation for the #1 overall pick! He diddn’t fall due to a lack of anything phsyically or mentally, Just dumb luck. Listing all the QB busts shows nothing except that teams either didn’t do their homework or or throwing a QB into a really bad situation and how desperate teams are for QB’s!
Brady is absolutely the anomoly, I don’t consider Romo a franchise QB, Flacco is questionable and Freeman its too soon to tell, but it looks good after 1 yr.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
One at a time...
No big deal 59 to 60, but that 60% if usually the minimum! Most teams prefer more like a 65% rate or close. There is a big difference between 59 and 65. When was the last time a team w/ anything other than a franchise QB won the SB? TB maybe and Dilfer. Yeah 2 in over a decade and you have to have a dominant D and strong running game if you don’t! Neither of which the Cards have anything close to. Or are you saying your D is going to be TB or Balt Dominant in the next 2 years? Now that would be dullusional don’ you think?
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Exactly 6 QBs last year completed 65% of their passes
and one of them was John Kitna. Truly only elite QBs complete 65% of their passes, and that should be the ultimate measuring stick. I would argue that TD:INT ratio and YPA are much more important.
Franchise QBs and the Super Bowl, let’s see.
Eli Manning isn’t Peyton, but his team won the SB
Ben won as a 2nd year starter with the worst QB SB performance ever
Dilfer won as the ultimate manager besides Brad Johnson, who also won.
So 4 out of the past 10 SB winners didn’t have “Franchise QBs”. Your argument that you can’t win without a Franchise QB is flawed.
The Cardinals have an influx of young talent and a D-Coordinator who learned from the best. They could very easily have a dominant defense within 2 years.
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
When did I say the numbers were hard and fast rules?
I didn’t… 59% is below to average at best. 65% is the higher end of everyone ever… Ben had a DOMINANT D and strong run game and it was his rookie year. Dilfer had a DOMINANT D and strong run game. Johnson had a DOMINANT D… Yeah it can be done, but lets not kid ourselves here. Cards don’t have anywhere near a dominant D OR a strong run game! That being the case you better find your Franchise QB!
Cards have no playmakers at LB. Pass rush was patheitc and didn’t get better. You HOPE thats some of those young guys are going to turn you into a dominant D, but truth is its unlikely w/o addressing those needs.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
once again, you failed to read my post
I said they had the potential to be dominant and if some of the young talent fills their potential, the D could be dominant within 2 years.
And in case you aren’t any good at math, the difference between 59% and 65% completion rate is approximately 2 passes a game. Completion % is one of the most pointless stats in the NFL.
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
Completion % is one of the most pointless stats in the NFL.
You keep believing that… LOL In a pass first NFL thats the way you win. Completing passes at a high rate. And the NFL is now a pass 1st, pass to win league.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Enough with the Cardinals
bashing, we all hope our D becomes elite just like you hope the Packers don’t make a fool of their inflated fan’s right now.
Is it bashing
To say the Cards are about 3 good drafts from being a playoff team? Thats been my position… Need a QB, another reciever (WR or TE) or preferrably 2, 2 good OL, another DL, Playmaking OLB and a safety. They don’t all have to be great players, but good solid starters. How long before you think they find them?
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Don't need
Anything but a QB. Now wants are a different story.
by Jesse Reynolds on May 20, 2011 6:12 PM MDT up reply actions
That's strange... because you as a Packer fan should know...
… that a team can get a franchise QB late in the 1st… say 24th overall after a 10-6 season where make it to the playoffs as a Wildcard.
Very happy he slid down to us...
But lets be honest, that was far more an anomoly, like Brady in the 6th, than a typical year. Look at this year… How many QB’s were drafted in the top 10 (3) and how many actually deserved to be? (1) maybe… Overall 4 1st round QB’s and maybe one or two deserved to be or had 1st round grades. Thats more the norm these days.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Kolb vs Orton
Now obviously I haven’t watched every snap of either of these guys, but from what I have seen, I tend to view Kolb as a guy that could (and I stress could if he achieves his full potential) be a true “franchise” QB. He’s still very inexperienced and there are far more unknowns about his game but at this point I think Orton is what he is. And from what I’ve seen, I think Orton is more a game manager as opposed to a franchise QB. Now there’s nothing wrong with the “game manager” title, that also means that he won’t strap the team on his back and carry his team to wins on a week in, week out basis.
Basically in my mind, while the risk is higher with Kolb, the potential reward is also higher. Orton could come in and be a fairly decent starting QB for several years but the team will always be looking for the true “franchise QB.” Maybe my propensity to roll the dice is higher than others but in this case I’d rather take the potential of a franchise QB or the “safer pick.”
by Steamin' Beamin' on May 18, 2011 12:46 PM MDT up reply actions
Most recent rumor I have heard...
Is that Elway would like a 3rd and a 5th for Orton. By adding Kyle, I think the Cards would be a near lock to make sure both those picks would be in the late end of those rounds. Orton gets better every year, and you guys added some nice pieces (Patrick Peterson esp.) to a team that I already think is clearly the best in your division.
What do you guys think? IS 3rd and a 5th sound like a good deal to you?
"I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious" Vince Lombardi
Orton
Its not like Orton is a playmaking QB tho… I don’t see him elevating the Cards QB situation far enough to make them a playoff team! Too many other holes on the team. Orton is a game manager, and a good one, but he completely, IMO, lacks the ability to change or win a game on his own. I think he would be a waste… It would get the Cards to about 8-8 or so, but not into the playoffs and the end result is that a couple years later they still would not have a Franchise QB on the team. He would make them just good enough to make them competitive, but in the process lose out on the ability to obtain a True Franchise QB. And he would also not be good enough to make the playoffs.
I think Orton is a complete waste of time in that regard! They would be treading water as a very average team, w/ no QB of the future, and no playoffs in sight! IMO, thats counter-productive… Unless the Cards are happy being kinda competitive, but not good enough to make the playoffs. And still not be able to REALLY address the QB situation.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I disagree.
How many real potential franchise QBs are there in college right now. Maybe one. That’s to much of a risk to tank a season to get him. I know you didn’t say tank, but that would be the only way to get that pick. Now if we were ultra competitive (8-8) with a game manager, that would be a better draw to higher profile FAs who could come and put us over the top. Proven Talent is more important than Potential Talent when you’re in a win now situation. Just my thoughts.
If you don't have anything good to say about the Cards this season, you'd be correct.
by hevchv on May 18, 2011 5:10 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
You are selling them both short...
I could give a lengthy explanation trying to dispel Kyle’s bum rap, but I’ll spare you…. Lets just say that he has improved every year, is still fairly young, and most of the negatives are offset somewhat by how (it hurts me to say it) absolutely awful the Broncos have been defensively and in the running game. :)
Instead let me just say that The Cards are a 7-9 team as the Roster stands right now. Grab another pass Rusher in Free agency and get stable QB play and your looking at a 10 win team, and a lock for their division. They have a fantastic young corner tandem, a talented young run stuffer manning the nose, a run game that was making some big strides last season, (and should be further improved) And already a have a good young QB to develop behind a proven starter. Face it, this team is to good to have a shot at Luck, Barkley or Jones, and all the prospects beyond that offer nothing that Skelton hasn’t already shown. Next draft will be better spent shoring up depth and securing another offensive weapon to keep teams honest on Fitz.
BTW, thank you all for the discussion. With the lockout keeping football news slow so far this offseason, I am forced to go to great lengths to get my “fix”. You guys have a good community over here and I look forward to stopping by during the season. Look forward to seeing you guys stomp the dirty Seahawks next year! (Hey, they USED to be AFC West!)
"I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious" Vince Lombardi
by CCBroncosFan on May 18, 2011 6:27 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I've probably seen Orton play more than you...
Watched him alot when he was in Chicago. I’m a Packer fans so I always watched my NFCN rivals alot. Orton isn’t going to win games on his own. He’s just not that kinda QB, not a difference maker. He needs alot of help to win… His numbers improved in Denver cuz he actually had NFL WR to throw to for a change. He’s as good as he’s gonna get!
What pass rushers are out there in FA? Only one I know of is Jenkins from the Pack. And hes missed alot of games and is 30 yrs old and plays a position the Cards don’t need to pay for, DE. No OLB thats a FA is going to make an impact! They don’t reach FA if they are impact players!
With Orton the Cards are a 7-9 to 9-7 team. That isn’t going to get you in many playoffs. And its gonna keep them from getting a Franchise QB in the draft. Heck even w/ a HOF QB they only managed to win 10 games! How is Orton going to put them over the top?
Besides which I am an unbiased observer in this… Would like to see the Cards do well, but they are not my team! I would say I’m the best source of unbiased info on the Cards and Orton as your going to find!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
to the Bronco's fans credit
They are saying that’s he’s improved every year (and his stats seem to back that up even though he didn’t have Brandon Marshall last season) so while you may have seen Orton quite a bit in ’07 and ’08, he seems to have improved since then.
by Steamin' Beamin' on May 18, 2011 12:55 PM MDT up reply actions
last season the division winner was 7-9
and no one in the division improved vastly enough to think 8-8 or 9-7 won’t be enough to win the division.
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
by robloosli on May 18, 2011 2:06 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Bradford will improve alot in year 2.
And when you get a big jump in QB play, the entire team usually follows suit. I think the Rams go 9-7 at worse and more likely 10-6 and win the division going away. Rams also lost a couple of WR that seemed to help Bradford to injury. Rams are the class of the division for the next decade unless another team gets a Franchise QB of similar talent to Bradford.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
What are you talking about
not making the playoffs with Orton Seattle made the playoffs with a losing record
Bradford is going to own this division for the next decade or so...
Unless you get a QB that is very close to his ability! Orton isn’t gonna do that for you. Kolb MIGHT, but thats an even bigger risk/reward option. Thats what I mean about not making the playoffs w/ Orton!
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or Steelers-West
Could actually come true in Arizona in that case, we’ll have Skelton who will only look more and more like Big Ben…Regardless of what anyone has to say about how sloppy Roethlisberger plays compared to the league’s elite passers…The man has two rings and had made three appearances in the SB. So even if Bradford does become this division franchise QB, and the NFC West starts sending two teams to the playoffs every season.
Seriously?
Are you trying to say that Skelton is the next Ben Roethlesburger? And that the Cards are gonna be the Steelers West? Come on Man… Please try to be REAL!
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What's not real
about what I said? Skelton, and Don’t sell our D short they’ve got as much borderline young talent as any squad in the league
The Cowboys game
on Christmas showed up what we have in Skelton, he is by no means the best technician, but he won that game in a somewhat ugly fashion, but he won never the less, it took some help from the Defensive side of the ball, but tell me that isn’t how the Patriots or Steelers took home Lombardi’s that way last decade
Skelton isn't anything like Ben
And he won’t be a franchise QB. The win on Christmas was a combo of luck and good defense early on to build a lead. Skelton made one good pass that game, and it came immediately after 3 bad ones. If Dallas doesn’t miss that PAT, we don’t win that game.
I will agree about our D having elite ability which is easily enough to win our division if they reach their potential.
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
No Franchise QB
Skelton is not a franchise QB, not even close. Neither is Orton or Bulger. If you get one its gonna take 2-3 years before he is ready to lead the team to the playoffs, much less the SB. Kolb might be, but thats largely unknown at this point.
The D has holes at safety, where Wilson is heading downhill. Great player, but he isn’t what he once was. Dockett isn’t a good fit as a staring 34 DE. Great pass rusher, but he shouldn’t be playing on run downs and your paying him to much to not use his full-time. Williams might be the NT you need. But he is unproven as yet. The LB corp is a shambles. Theres some young talent there, but also alot of ??? Need another OLB that can be the pass rusher to dominate and force teams to account for him. OBSchofield isn’t that kinda player IMO and Acho isn’t either. No playmakers at safety, Need better LB’s and gonna need another DE.
THis team is about 3 drafts from being a top NFC team. And thats if you get a Franchise QB.
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Really?
Haven’t you said how big of a fan you are of Schofield?
by Cardsfan928 on May 18, 2011 10:45 PM MDT up reply actions
Love him cuz he's a Badger.
But I’ve always also said that I don’t think he is a game changer. He needs someone on the other side to take the pressure and make offenses game plan for. IMO, he isn’t that player. Good player, but not a difference maker in his own right. Its why Miller would have been perfect. Acho is the same IMO, as Schofield. And nobody knows how OBScho will be after the knee either.
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A strong defense will take you as far as a franchise QB
Look at teams like TB, Bal, PIT early in Ben’s career, NYG, all Super Bowl winners without a franchise QB. The Cardinals are in the process of building a veery strong defense. The only missing piece is at OLB, and they have several promising, young, athletic OLBs looking to prove they have what it takes. If the defense reaches it’s potential, Orton would be more than enough at QB to take this team to the playoffs and win.
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
Even though our 5th round draftees are typically our best,
Yeah, I’d be down with that. A 3rd and a 5th are about the same value as a 2nd. Keeping our 1st and 2nd round choices in place would keep us in the hunt to acquire one of the darling draft prospects coming out next year if we’re not happy with Orton/Skelton/Other by that point, too.
I would hapily trade a 3rd and 5th for Orton
While he may not be a “game changer” or a “franchise QB”, he is a solid, better than average QB, and could certainly lead the team to a 10 win season. We know exactly what we would get with Orton: an accurate QB who won’t lose the game for you a la DA. With Kolb or any rookie, we don’t know exactly what we’re getting. Kolb might be good, he might be terrible. He’s as big of a risk as drafting a QB in the 1st round. Combine that with what it will cost to get him, and Orton makes much, much more sense.
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
by robloosli on May 18, 2011 10:33 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
3rd and 5th is actually a pretty fair price if you ask me
If we’re talking about a 1st for Kolb or a 3rd and a 5th for Orton, then that’s a toss up in my mind and again it comes down to the staff’s faith in Skelton.
by Steamin' Beamin' on May 18, 2011 12:51 PM MDT up reply actions
Great deal
I’ve already expressed my doubts about Kolb, and I don’t like the idea of selling the farm for him, and I think Orton is a better value.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
I dont like the idea of trading for Orton.
I think if they are going to make a trade for a QB swing for the fences/ go all in an get Kolb. With Kolb at his best and some O-lin upgrades this team could be a playoff contender.
Otherwise we should scrape the bottom of the barrel for a qb like mcnabb or bulger that could help teach skelton. That puts us in a better position to draft so elite talent next year since there is a chance that this season could be screwed anyway due to the lockout
Honestly, I wouldn't really want to trade for either of them.
I believe Kolb comes with too many question marks to trade a multiple early round picks, let alone a single 1st rounder. Orton is just a product of scheme IMO. He was very pedestrian in Chicago, and he’s been solid in Denver, but I think his numbers are bit inflated in very QB friendly offense. I question wether Kolb is in the same situation, just look at what happened to McNabb. Franchise QB in Philly’s offense, benched for REX GROSSMAN in Washington. Before I wanted Bulger, but after all the reports I’ve read questioning his passion for the game, I’ve kind of fallen off that wagon. I think if you’re willing to trade for anyone, go after Carson Palmer. He’s a perfect fit in this offense, has plenty left in the tank, and he desperately needs a change of scenery. There’s no way he can play in Cincy and have a healthy supportive locker room behind him now, not after what he’s pulled to get out of there. Why would they just let him walk off into retirement instead of trading him and gaining something? They didn’t draft AJ Green and Andy Dalton for nothing, Ochocinco and Palmer are as good as gone.
I think almost anyone would agree that Palmer would be the top choice
But as of now, it’s been made clear by Cincinatti that he is unavailable and I think we’re all operating on that premise.
The problem is, none of these options are a long term solution. Kolb might have the most long term potential, but he is so unproven, there is no way to tell if he is going to be an elite QB or not.
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
I'd like to point out one thing
Orton had crap for receivers and o-coordinator in chicago… he had crap for receivers in denver and a defense even worse than ours… and i’d take his good managing (with our receivers who CAN make plays) for a 3rd+5th, over selling the farm for a completely unkown in kolb..
if i was andy reid i would hype up his value as well…
We dont need GREAT quarterback play to be competitive, we just need avg… its still the NFC west… Bradford may be good ( statistically avg) but the rams suck everywhere else.
Really?
You NEEDED great QB play from Warner just to make the playoffs! Since he retired this team is going nowhere but down until it gets another Great QB. That much should be exceedingly obvious, I think.
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Average QB play would have got the Cardinals into the playoffs last season.
Would not likely have got them beyond in, but the Seahawks won the division with a losing record. Counting on the other 3 teams to stagnate is a bad idea though. We need the best QB we can get. We saw what happens when you settle last season.
Average QB play gets you just that...
Average play and not just at QB. It usually keeps you from winning more than 7-9 games. Unless you have a DOMINANT D and run game. Neither of which the Cards has!
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