The Ugly Truth - Kevin Kolb
by khodder on May 27, 2011 1:30 AM MDT
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Print(Note from Jess: While I am on board to acquire Kolb, khodder here has given a counterpoint based on what he was seen and done with crunching numbers. Great discussion has been going on and this definitely deserves a place on the front page.)
Kevin Kolb is currently the hot name among all QB's to end up in Arizona next season. Adam Schefter, John Clayton and Peter King have all come out and said it is a near enough slam dunk that Kevin Kolb is going to be the starting QB of the Arizona Cardinals in 2011. But all we hear about Kolb is that Reid has tutored him, he has been under the guidance of a QB guru, who thought enough of him to draft him in the 2nd round and hand him the starting job over Donovan McNabb. However we rarely see the truth about Kevin Kolb.
Kevin Kolb is nothing more than an average QB in the NFL right now. If you look at his numbers from the past two seasons and compare the to the league wide numbers in 2010 it does not look pretty at all.
Kolb's raw statline: 177/285, 62.11% completions, 1938 yards, 11 TD's and 10 INT's...
But we need to delve a little deeper look into the efficiency ratings of what Kevin Kolb can do. His YPA of 6.8 would have tied him for 21st overall in the NFL, with (somewhat ironically) Carson Palmer and Matt Hasselbeck. His QBR of 80.42 would have landed him 24th in the NFL behind such stars as Shaun Hill, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Alex Smith and Kerry Collins. His 62.11% completions would have landed him 18th in the NFL trailing the most accuracte of QB's Chad Henne, Carson Palmer and Jon Kitna. Kolb's 3.86 TD% would have landed him 23rd in the NFL behind superstars of the game such as Alex Smith, Jason Campbell, Kerry Collins and Jon Kitna. His 3.51 INT% would have placed him 25th in the NFL below the best ball protectors in the NFL Jimmy Clausen and Derek Anderson.
Is this really a guy we want to pay a huge price for? A guy who is outproduced by Alex Smith right across the board. A guy who is beaten in nearly every major statistical category by Kerry Collins, Jon Kitna and Shaun Hill?
Consistency wise, Kolb is eerily similar to the 2006 verson of Rex Grossman. They guy who would come out and throw 4 TD's to 0 INT's one week, and then throw 5 picks the next. In his 9 games where he has attempted a pass he has posted three games with a QBR of over 100 (Great love the kid), but he has also posted 5 games with a QBR of 75 or less including 3 of under 60. Similar to what Grossman in 2006 did as he was carried to the Superbowl. 7 games with a QBR over 100 and another of 98.6, while also posting 5 games with a QBR of under 70.
And the sad thing is that is not even the worst of it. Arguably the worst part about Kevin Kolb is that in the 38 times he has been hit (18 sacks, 20 rushing attempts) he has fumbled 8 times. 8 fumbles in 9 games, that is horrible. Over the past two seasons Kolb has accounted for 12 TD's (11 passing, 1 rushing) but has also been accountable for 10 interceptions and 8 fumbles, two turnovers a game. Sounds enticing.
So taking a step back and looking at Kolb, we have a guy who is merely average in the NFL, is 27 years of age, has had injury problems, is wildly inconsistent, has turnover issues, does not push his team down the field to scores and has been out performed by the likes of Shaun Hill and Kerry Collins. And we are looking at trading a future first round pick for this guy. Don't make me laugh. Kevin Kolb is likely never going to amount to anything more than barely average, that is the truth, and sometimes the truth hurts.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Revenge of the Birds' (ROTB) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of ROTB's editors.
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The truth hurts
But I’m glad it’s out. The Eagles wouldn’t be trading him if they saw him as the future.
by Jesse Reynolds on May 26, 2011 11:13 AM MDT reply actions
Actually, they would
Michael Vick is going to be around past next season, if all goes according to the Eagles plans. Kevin Kolb becomes a UFA after next season. He’s going to leave if he’s not made a starter, which he won’t be if Michael Vick is still around, which he will be.
So, the Eagles have two choices: Trade him now and get something back in return, or keep him for another year and have him walk.
by Skii on May 29, 2011 9:19 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Pretty much the situation the Bengals are in.
Except the Eagle’s FO aren’t idiots.
That does make a lot of sense.
I should have thought about that.
by Jesse Reynolds on May 29, 2011 8:14 PM MDT up reply actions
Sam Bradford is considered a future superstar
He has four games fewer than Kolb. Kolb is essentially a rookie in starts and yet has better competion pct. and higher qb rating. Why so quick to write him off while Bradford is still so highly rated?
by Birdman from Mesa on May 26, 2011 12:03 PM MDT reply actions
Why?
Kolb has spent four years in a system learning and watching ans still has struggled. He has played in a QB friendly system that has revived careers of Jeff Garcia and Michael Vick and made AJ Feeley look like a star. He is surrounded by a top quality supporting cast too.
Bradford was thrown in at the deep end with a mediocre offensive supporting cast, he still has a whole lot of learning to do, and he had the pedigree that everyone saw in college rather than the figment that is Kolb will be good because he learned under Reid.
Yeah and after 6 NFL starts Aaron Rodgers certainly didn't look like a world beater! 3-3 record.
Kolb is like Rodgers in his 1st season as a starter. He has the tools to become a very good NFL QB. But he NEEDS to play, he NEEDS experience! Until he gets a chance nobody knows how good he can be.
You can’t expect him to play like veteran w/ all of 6 NFL starts under his belt! If you trade for him your basically drafting a rookie QB that is ready to start, but simply needs experience! Theres NOTHING else he can learn on the sidelines, he has to play for a year or so before he becomes what he can be. He’s exactly like Rodgers in 08, he’s ready to start and play, but needs to experience things in live game action. No 2 ways about it… Will he be as good as Rodgers? Probably not. But he WILL get MUCH better. Your buying his potential not what he has done to date!
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Totally agree
on the comparisons, but now since Kolb would be coming to Arizona he would have basically start all over, sorry I’ll pass.
Learning a new playbook isn't starting over!
His mechanics and footwork would all transfer right over to another team. Learning new plays is difficult, but the first year would be a free pass given the lockout and lack of offseason and maybe a shortened training camp.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Learning new plays...
Coaches, Players, and Trainers…It’s basically starting over again, see Alex Smith
I'm getting
at Kolb will have to readjust to new everything so even if playing time was all he needed to prove he is a Franchise QB, then why wouldn’t a guy like Andy Reid give it to him? Regardless….I used Alex Smith, because he is a guy who with the same organization, but constant coaching switches never got settled, but also has a high “potential factor” that we’ve heard for so long.
by Cardsfan928 on May 26, 2011 10:03 PM MDT up reply actions
Constant coaching changes is differeent than changing schemes ONCE.
And Alex Smith is a poor example. He got a new OC every year for his first 4 or 5 seasons! That causes problems, but changing once after 4 seasons isn’t a big deal. Reid made Kolb the franchise QB last year when Kolb became the starter, but Vick played like the MVP, just like Brady did when he took over for Bledsoe!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
+1
QB’s who are traded don’t suddenly become terrible for a year.
Really?
Kurt Warner was terrible when he first showed up in NY, they shipped him off and he was benched in Lieu of Matt Leinart here…
I wouldnt call him terrible with NY
Started off 5-2 over there, and his numbers weren’t that terrible there for a running team. But he had a crapload of fumbles which you can attribute to the hand injury. I’d say that he was just average at best with NY.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Regardless...
One of our favorite players struggled learning a new system…a former MVP at that…NO way Kolb gives us any boost this season.
You know that I am not that high on Kolb either
But he would at least be an upgrade on what we had last year from what I have seen.
The question is how much of an upgrade would he be.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
The question is how much of an upgrade would he be.
I think with him we are still a 6-10 team.
Hear me out here. We were horrid last season, we won 5 games, we probably deserved to win maybe 2, probably 1. Kolb is an upgrade he helps this team but not a huge amount maybe 4 wins from what we SHOULD have had last season, and we are still at 5-6 wins.
6 wins is picking inside of the top 10 pick, are we willing to use a top 10 pick on Kolb?
We were as far from 2-14 as we were from 8-8
If we sink some resources into a QB this year, we can expect to be a competitive team in the division. It will be a huge failing if we aren’t picking in the bottom half of the draft, playoffs or otherwise.
Based on the record we had last year that is true.
Based on the product and performances we actually put on the field that is well off the mark. Based on performance, we are closer to 0-16 than 8-8. And that there is the Ugly Truth.
Then add a decent QB to the '10 team and then look at the games
Would we have been in a position to lose to an Oakland field goal in the first place? Would we still have managed to lose to Carolina?
I can really only think of one, maybe two games, where our quarterback did more good than harm.
I can really only think of one, maybe two games, where our quarterback did more good than harm.
Yeah, that is probably right, but our defense was not winning us games with their inabiklity to stop simile running plays and their tendnecy to give up huge plays. The Nawlins game aside our defesne was horrid last season. And with a new scheme arriving this season, it may not be pretty early.
Definitely want to see Kolb as the starter next year.
If not Kolb then McNabb. Someone like Orton or Palmer would be a waste IMO.
Why is Orton "A Waste"
He is only about 18 months older and has proven in his time in the league to be a far better QB than Kolb.
The only reason people like Kolb and dislike Orton is because of the made up term “ceiling” because of the Kolb hype train being driven by the Media and Andy Reid everyone thinks he has a high ceiling when in reality it is no better than Orton is now. So why not get Orton now?
This is all speculation
We could get Bulger and win the superbowl or we could trade away a fortune for kolb and go 2-14.
However. I believe Kolb gives us the best chance to win the NFC West and go deep into the playoffs. If we aquire Orton we would win some games. Maybe even enough to save Whiz from getting fired. But I can’t see Orton (or Palmer,) winning a playoff game. So if we trade for Orton all we would be doing is “getting by” next season. We would win enough games to miss out on the better rookie QB’s in the 2012 draft. Orton is not the answer. Kolb may not be either. But at least he COULD BE. I think we should go big or go home. If not Kolb get an older guy like McNabb or Bulger who could help teach Skelton. Then towards the end of the season throw John in there and see what we have. If he’s no good we would most likely be in a position to draft a potential franchise QB in 2012. if he plays well then commit to him in 2012.
Look at what the Cards did in the draft. They picked up players that can come in and have an impact right away. Peterson, Williams, and Housler are guys that can contribute immediately. This leads me to believe Whiz and co. aren’t rebuilding they are trying to win now. The biggest obstacle left to make this team into potential NFC West champs is a QB and some O-linemen. Kolb has the most upside PERIOD. He’s just old enough and experienced enough to where he has a feel for the game. He hasn’t even entered his prime yet. Orton and Palmer have reached and past their prime. You know what your getting with them. With Kyle and Carson you know what your getting. Average to below average Qb’s. Kolb COULD come in and exceed expectations. He COULD be the franchise QB for years to come. He’s a bigger risk because of what we would have to give up to get him. But he has WAY more upside then anyone else available.
IN MY OPINION it would be worth it to take the risk. We have a very talented young defense that could be special right now. All we need is an offense that can put points on the board. Trade for Kolb, and sign the best offensive linemen we can through free agency. Take a chance or risk losing Fitzgerald and Coach Whiz and being at the bottom of a very winnable Division for years to come.
Thats my take
by CardsDefense on May 26, 2011 1:54 PM MDT up reply actions
Having said that:
I think it would be a mistake to trade for Kolb if the lockout ends up lasting into the season. It would be too difficult for him to learn a new system and develop chemistry with his teammates if doesn’t have OTAs, Camp, and some preseason games to get comfortable. If the Lockout lasts too long we should sign McNabb.
by CardsDefense on May 26, 2011 2:05 PM MDT up reply actions
1 – How is Kolb getting us to the playoffs but Orton is not. What does Kolb give to us NEXT SEASON, that is better than Orton?
2 – The “could be” on Kolb is based on media hype and Andy Reid Hype. If he could be a franchise QB, maybe you think he might have been regarded a little higher in the draft. If he could be a franchise QB you think the Eagles would even consider trading him? Kolb is not the next great QB, he is never going to be more than average, the Eagles know this and are trying to makie out like bandits.
3 – They picked players to come in and have an immedaite impact. But I guarantee you not one of them will start more than 8 games as a rookie. Whis always talks one way (Immediate impact) but acts another (slow playing rookies in their first year)
4 – Again the upside on Kolb is a media myth. He does not have a whole lot of upside, his upside stops at what Kyle Orton alredy is.
5 – Orton is not past his prime, he has just entered it as a 28 year old QB coming off one of his best seasons before it was ruined by injury.
6 – Kolb is NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER going to be a franchise QB. NEVER.
7 – He has more upside than Orton becasue Orton has reached his peak. I have more upside than Orton does too. The fact that a player has more upside, just means they have more growing and more work to do. It does not mean that once they reach their “upside” that they will be any better than another player who is already at their peak.
8 – Whiz is not going to be fired with one more poor season. Leave that thought out of this, we could go 2-14 and Whis still has a job here, Guaranteed.
9 – Getting Kolb does not mean we kepp Fitz.
10 – Your take is based of media hype, fallacy and hope. Mine is based of fact, stats and film.
by khodder on May 26, 2011 2:26 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
My opinion is in no way swayed by what Andy Reid has said. No matter how much you repeat you repeat the words media hype
My opinions on Kevin Kolb were formed based on game tape that I have watched.
He is the son of a coach, he has great footwork, he can make all the throws, and he has shown he can win games.
I never said Orton was past his prime. I said Palmer is past his prime. Orton is in his prime and I’m still not impressed.
I absolutely think Kolb COULD be a franchise QB or close too it. Certainly way closer than Orton ever will. I guess it depends on how you define franchise. For the sake of argument lets throw out that word. I think Kolb could be better than Eli Manning who already has a ring. A lot of people consider Eli Manning a franchise QB.
Why would the Eagles trade him you say? Well if they don’t and Vick starts all year he walks away next year and they get nothing.
1st round pick > nothing at all.
Kevin Kolb getting a concussion at the very beginning of last season could be the greatest thing that ever happened for the cardinals. If he played well all season he would certainly not be traded unless someone offered a kings ransom.
Personally I like Coach Whiz and hope he doesn’t get fired even if we don’t win a lot of games next year, but it’s a what have you done for me lately world we live in these days.
The Cards Asked Larry Fitzgerald which QB he wants.
There is a reason he said Kevin Kolb and not Kyle Orton.
by CardsDefense on May 26, 2011 4:10 PM MDT up reply actions
What?
Uhm you really dont think that PP7 is going to start more than 8 games?
by Nick Thoreson on May 31, 2011 3:19 PM MDT up reply actions
That would be idiotic.
Peterson should be the starter Day 1. He is a much better player than Toler and is a playmaker. I don’t even care it he only knows the basic D, he should start immediately.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
+1
Even the Pats started a rookie at CB and he made the pro bowl!
by Nick Thoreson on May 31, 2011 3:27 PM MDT up reply actions
Gotta see how he does in training camp/preseason though
With the Lockout, he doesn’t have as much time to learn the Defense and work with his teammates as these guys normally get. But I’m sure Fitz will put in plenty of work with PP to help get him used to covering NFL receivers.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Toler isn't exactly a jobber.
As a matter of fact his run support was highly overlooked by the terrible LB play this season, …Peterson has to earn his playing time.
Peterson should beat out Toler
The first day of training camp! First week at the latest.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
He was one of the top rated DBs in run support according to a PFF link from earlier this week.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Going on past history
Everyone thought Beanie Wells would step in day 1 and start 16 games as a feature back….
Everyone though Dan Williams was going to step in day 1 and start 16 games at NT.
Everyone thought DRC would easily displace Eric Green and start most of the season at CB (He started 8)
Both Whis and Horton has shown a disdain for starting rookies, Horton even expanded on that and said that he does not like the start rookies in the secondary becasue one mistake often means the other team has 7 points on the board.
Our CB tandem right now is far strong than the Rolle/Green combo we had when DRC was our 1st round pick. DRC still only managed to start 8 games.
I just get the feeling that based on the past and the tendencies of this coaching staff that we are not going to just throw Peterson into the lineup, especially with the length of the lockout.
I see where you are going
but this isnt DRC, this is a guy who held down an Island in the SEC against gentleman who just had like 6 draft picks traded for him(Julio Jones) and the #4 pick(AJ Green) who will both be starting next year.
by Nick Thoreson on May 31, 2011 3:51 PM MDT up reply actions
It was hardly an island
He had a whole heap of safety help vs those two guys, becasue a collegiate team would have been stupid not to vs those guys.
He played a lot of cover 2 and Cover 3 at LSU to. Often not matching him up vs receivers at all. But rather playing the receivers that came into his zone.
It would not be surprised to see Petersons tart game 1, but I get the feeling that he is going to be held back a bit, and the lockout is only going to make matters worse.
He played man coverage...
And shut everyone down! If Peterson isn’t starting Whiz should be on the train out of town. Peterson was the top player in the entire draft. Williams was the #30 pick in the draft and DRC was 16th and came from a D2 school. Not surprising they didn’t start… Peterson is a playmaker and better be starting Day 1.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Khodder is right on here
Whiz is very against handing over a job right away to a rookie. I’d almost guarantee seeing PP as nickel CB to start.
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Coach Whiz doesn't exactly hate starting rookies
He just feels that a rookie should earn his starting position, and shouldn’t be handed it just because he’s a high draft pick.
I think the opposite.
He noted how he hated having to put Hall and Skelton in the game. He had both rookies on tiny leashes to the point where he had Bartell splitting first team practice reps with Skelton.
He hooked Hall after one bad Half, yet let Anderson go far longer.
Williams was the best player at NT when he stepped on the facility, he started what 2 games last season. Beanie was the best RB when he stepped onto the facility, Timmy has started over him since his arrival. DRC even as an unproven rookie was a better coverage guy than Green and Rolle, yet he sat for 8 games. Best example is Washington starting as a rookie, being clearly our best LB, but then ending up on the bench behind Lenon and Hayes when 5-4 came back healthy. Whis hates to start rooks.
Whis may preach immediate impact and the best player will play, but he does not act that way, he hates inexperience.
Hall and Skelton
Are a 5th rd pick and an UDFA. Of course he hated putting them on the field, they were FAR from being ready to play. But we’re talking about Patrick Peterson, what most scouts believed to be the best player in the entire draft, not a late round pick and an undrafted player. Beannie has been a bust to date and has done little except get in Whiz’s doghouse. Whether he EVER gets out is anyones guess. DRC was a D2 college player, who coming from a small school had a huge learning curve. If Whiz doesn’t have Peterson on the field starting day 1, he deserves all the ridicule he’ll likely get!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Beanie still needs another year
He was pretty good in his rookie year, then he wound up playing through all of last year through injuries beginning with a meniscus tear in the 4th preseason game and he also had an allergic reaction to the medication that was used on it.
Lets see if he can stay healthy next year, and preform better.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
He, along with the rest of the team, had no plan
To start John Skelton. He was drafted to be a project QB, and only played because the QB position as a whole was planing terribly (And was decent at that).
I’ve said this repeatedly: Bryan Robinson started only for tradition. He stayed on another year to mentor Dan Williams. By the end of the year, Dan Williams was playing most of the minutes, which had been everyone’s goal the entire year.
Coach Whiz starts the best player. He also doesn’t want high draft picks to feel like just because they were drafted in the early rounds, they deserve a starting job immediately.
Williams
Dan was out of shape and wasnt he scratched from a couple games because of it?
by Nick Thoreson on Jun 2, 2011 12:50 PM MDT up reply actions
Just one
And he was only 3 or 4 pounds overweight
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Probably all it took to get in the doghouse.
Which seemed to take him most of the season to get out of. Coaches don’t have much tolerance for players that don’t show up in top condition. A lesson I bet Williams learned the hard way.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
He learned
Never had any weight issues after it.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Hope your right...
And I actually agree, I don’t think it’ll happen again. Lesson learned.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I think we should go big or go home
Couldn’t have said it better! Kolb comes w/ the potential for BIG things, no one else does. Its called Risk/Reward! If your not willing to take the risk you won’t get any reward! Kolb Needs to play, he can’t learn anymore from the bench. WHen he does play, in a year he will be FAR and away better then any of the other QB’s available!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
How I feel. But, you showed it better
I am really worried about a season that seems to be headed toward Kolb at the helm. He has a lot of potential, because he hasn’t stepped up yet. He has franchise QB potential, says the guy who wants as much as possible for him.
A really high price gamble with the best likely scenario that he proves to be worth the cost if the bet is won!! I always love to place bets where I have to be right to break even.
by Revenge of the Birds on May 26, 2011 12:47 PM MDT reply actions
I can see it now
With the 3rd overall pick acquired from the Arizona Cardinals. The Philadelphia Eagles select, Quarterback, Stanford, Andrew Luck.
I mean
If Carolina ends up at #1 or #2 again which is very possible considering they will be starting one of Newton, Clausen, Pike or Moore at QB and then a team like Denver (Who could select him might pass) if Jacksonville or Minnesota have horror years and end up in the top 2 they will likely pass on him. If Tennesse ends up in the top 2 they probably pass.
Plenty of teams could pass of Luck. Trades will be explored, but it by no means says it will get done.
Why not
The two are very very comparable as prospects. Leinart was considered a lock to go to a very QB needy team in SF in 2005. He went back for his senior seasonm lost in the National Championship game and “slipped” top 10th overall.
Go look at scouting reports of Leianrt from 05-06 and it lamost feels as if you are reading a scouting report on Luck.
Agreed
I was never a ML fan, but boy was I happy we drafted him. He was a “winner” and came out of a pro offense. Little that did him.
The only differences between Luck and ML are physical capabilities and work ethic. That there will be the difference between their two careers.
by Jesse Reynolds on May 26, 2011 2:38 PM MDT up reply actions
Leinart
was not lead footed, don’t sell him to short, he gave us plenty of hope before a broken collarbone.
I remember that season well
he looked hungover every game. He was slow to make decisions. The blitz was obvious that play where he broke his collarbone. He had plenty of time to get rid of the ball. Instead he stood there like a deer in headlights and got knocked out of the game and was lost for the season.
I agree that he looked good the year before, but that whole season he looked like he was stoned. You could tell he just didn’t care enough to put in the work required to be great
by CardsDefense on May 26, 2011 6:25 PM MDT up reply actions
Man you are joking right
Oliver Ross the RT blocked inside instead of outside. He was left blocking air as Will Witherspoon came unblocked to hit Matt.
If Ross had performed his assignment Witherspoon would have been blocked easily.
Go rewatch the MNF meltdown. Leinart was tremendous that game, absolutely tremendous.
If that's true...
Thank you Oliver Ross for delivering us to the super bowl!
by AlaskanCard on May 26, 2011 8:27 PM MDT up reply actions 3 recs
Uhm difference between luck and pretty boy?
How about the HUGE arm strength difference??
by Nick Thoreson on May 31, 2011 3:22 PM MDT up reply actions
Not really.
Luck is solid, abover average. Same thing scouting reports said about Leinart.
He threw more than his fair share of downfield balls to the likes of Jarrett and Williams in his time at SC.
Has a compact release, keeping the ball high to unleash deep tosses with ease … Puts good velocity behind his tosses and is good at getting the ball over the outside shoulder of his target
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/historical/415213
Matt was an elite prospect, in the same mold as Andrew Luck is being talked about right now. That does not mean the ends will be the same, but as prospects they are very similar.
WOW
I am not sold on Luck but even I can watch a game and see that he can throw the deep out and when I watched Pretty Boy in college you could tell that he cant make that throw, he lofted the ball up to Williams but no out side rockets by any means. Luck looks like he gets the ball where he wants it on a line. I never thought pretty boy looked like he had arm strength.
by Nick Thoreson on May 31, 2011 3:56 PM MDT up reply actions
Leinarts arm is a limp noodle!
In other words he doesn’t have one. And your right, Leinart throwing a deep out, he had to put loft on the ball to get it there. Everyone knew entering the draft that Leinart had poor arm strength. Luck is in another league compared to Leinart in that category. Leinart is also a front runner, he crumbles when anyone threatens his job. He doesn’t have the mental makeup to handle the NFL. His body language is crap too…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
You have to agree
that Leinart’s arm was one of the weakest in the league.
I wouldn't put it on that level
Thats Pennington level stuff.
Leinart just had middle of the road arm strength, that isn’t one of the “weakest in the league”.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Here is an example of what I mean
This a a video from one of the Preseason games in 07 before he broke his collarbone (it is possible that he didn’t completely recover from it and his arm got a little bit weaker too)
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d801d21fb/Matt-Leinart-highlights-vs-Chargers
He doesn’t have the elite arm that you need to fit the ball into tiny windows, but his arm is good enough to make deep throws in the NFL.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
he under threw 2 of those deep balls.
and half of his passes flutter out of his hand.
can u name a 3 QB's that have weaker arms than leinart?
besides pennington?
He doesn't have a terribly weak arm
It’s just that after he broke his collarbone, he seemed to be more cautious, and unwilling to throw the deep ball (Which, honestly, I can understand why, because I’d hate to break my collarbone. That must be one of the worst bones to break).
Terrible arm or unwilling to throw deep.
The result is the same. It makes him a useless QB… IMO, his arm was weak before the injury and if he didn’t rehab properly it may not have recovered. But a collarbone isn’t that difficult to return from. Woodson broke his collarbone in the SB and still tried to play thru it.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
lol
no one can name 3 QB’s that have weaker arms?
There aren't any!
Thats not too hard to figure out!! Leinart has/had a limp noodle arm!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
haha exactly
pennington’s is weaker, but thats about it.
Sorry, I missed this
Don’t really see why you are so desperate to prove that Leinart’s arm is a limp noodle when some of us here were just saying that it was average. So, here are a couple who I think have weaker arms that played this year.
Weaker arm strength:
Pennington
Colt McCoy
Bruce Gradkowski
Ryan Fitzpatrick
Seneca Wallace
Shaun Hill
Charlie Batch
Jon Kitna
Todd Collins (Probably THE worst arm)
Happy now?
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
not really
There are 2, maybe 3 bad starting QBs that u listed. the rest are back ups.
None of these QB’s are good. Our point was that Leinart’s arm is not good enough for the NFL. I’d rather have most of these guys rather than Leinart. Kitna, Batch, Hill, and Fitzpatrick are better than Leinart, arm strength wise. Almost every ball that comes out of Leinart’s hand is a wounded duck.
Even if Leinart’s arm was better than ALL of these guys, he still wouldnt have an average NFL arm.
Luck has a great arm
Leinart just had good but not great arm strength.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Thats a Joke right?
Leinart was never near the quality of Luck! He was too in love w/ being a celebrity and shrunk like a midget when challenged. He is a front runner w/ no competiitve fire whatsoever!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Hide your disdain
of Matt Leinart, as far as Luck goes pending on this season he is almost the same quality as Leinart was in college, Just because his pro career has been disappointing compared to his college career is no reason to take anything away from someone who can be debated as the best collegiate QB ever.
he was still the 3rd best Qb in his draft class
by CardsDefense on May 26, 2011 6:21 PM MDT up reply actions
No. Just....No
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/historical/415213
Have a quick read. Put everything he did in the NFL behind you. That right there was a guy considered a “Can’t Miss QB” exactly the same moniker put on Andrew Luck.
The guy in that aritcle
is a monster on the field he will make us forget who Tom Brady or Peyton Manning are
Except
He didn’t have any mobility, arm strength or mental fortitude whatsoever! LMFAO
Can’t miss, who did… Gee I bet those guys were willing to bet their livelihoods on him?! WHat some sportswriter has to say means about as much as you or I. And is CRAP to an NFL GM!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Well
Luck’s report can’t get much better than that. For all anyone knows he can bust out as well.
And thats why alot of Cards fans
Are advocating basically throwing the season to get Luck?!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
A lot?
I’d say its a very small minority that want to lose out to get Luck. A very, very small minority.
You call your self a Cards fan but than separate yourself at the same time? Get off the fence and pick a side.
by Jesse Reynolds on May 26, 2011 9:24 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't call myself a Cards fan!
I’m a Packer fan! Don’t ever doubt that… WOuld I like to see the Cards play good winning football? sure, but make no mistake about my allegiance! It IS and will ALWAYS be the Packers!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I would like to see them winning.
Since I live in the Phx area. As long as they aren’t beating the Packers I’m happy for them. Your not very hospitable to fans of other teams. Why are you so anti-social? Can’t you have a conversations w/ fans of other teams?
You sound kinda bitter about something.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Too be honest, the GB ****-sucking and homer-isms are getting old. Its great you want to chit chat and talk Cards but with your vast football knowledge being about only GB you make yourself look like a child only wanting to boast about how great he is. (Yes, I’m slightly exaggerating but you get the point)
If you want to talk football relating to the Cards that’s fine. If you want to talk Green Bay relating to the Cards, don’t.
He was asked why he was here then.
He wasn’t being a jerk.
I never said he was being a jerk. I said the constant talking about GB is getting old. If he wants to compare the Cardinals to other teams, that’s fine as long as it is teams, plural.
I bring them up
Only when it pertinent or when someone else does so first. Don’t want me to talk about them, don’t bring them up or comment when I do in a related way to the Cards.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I respectfully disagree. You bring them up consistently, and excessively. They seem to be your only means to make an argument. Its great your another teams fan talking Cards, but your inability to add anything beyond GB conjecture, is wearing people thin. Hence, the comments that you interpret as attacks (granted some are blatantly that).
It may be that we're just not used to hearing outside opinions of the Cards
Other than the rest of the NFC West guys stopping by to bash us ;) Most of the regulars have a higher opinion of some of our guys than fans around the league might but you do come off abrasively sometimes, Stroh.
Yeah, kind of an antagonistic personality
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Outside opinions are objective.
I don’t have a reason to bash the Cards and in fact I want them to succeed. Stated that many times. Not the fault of an outsider, that he has objectivity, which is lacking here.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
No opinions are objective.
They are by nature subjective. Outside opinions don’t suffer from homerism.
my favorite
part is that in two of your comments, you’ve referred to the Cards as, “we”.
Awesome.
That was a cut and paste from someone else's comment.
If you would look a little closer you would have seen that.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
so
that accounts for one, what about the other?
Also, maybe it’s your fault for making it more clear?
Think that accounts for both...
You’ll have to point them out individually, Cuz I could only find the one.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
+1
If we grab Kolb we will be in the top ten, maybe we can grab Barkely or some else who miraculously climbs the boards once the season is over.
by Jesse Reynolds on May 26, 2011 2:39 PM MDT up reply actions
You're analysis of Kolb is extremely biased towards the negative
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not sold on Kolb myself but to choose Orton over him when Orton is a horrible 3rd down qb who lacks mobility, and is one of the least clutch qb’s in the NFL. All aspects that make him a liability. The fact you choose to ignore all those negatives while boasting only about his positives shows incredible personal bias.
by CanadianCard on May 26, 2011 2:53 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Bias, no, Truth, Fact is what this is.
You actually have a bias against Orton.
Unclutch. His 9TD’s to 4 INT’s in the fourth quarter this past season would probably disagree, and the fact that Kolb threw just 1 TD to 3 INT’s in 2010 in the fourth quarter and over the past two seasons combined has thrown 2 TD’s to 5 INT’s in the fourth quarter would indicate that if either of Kolb or Orton was unclutch it would be Kolb, not Orton.
Orton did struggle big time on 3rd downs in 2010, he excelled on 3rd downs in 2009, with 10 TD’s to just 3 INT’s coming on third downs. I have not ignored him, merely I have stated that the plusses he brings far outweigh the negatives and the opposite could be said about Kolb I struggle to find a single positive in his game other than the fact his piles up yards.
Over the last two seasons in the 4th quarter Kolb has 2 TD’s to 5 INT’s compared to a player like Orton (Who you claimed was “unclutch”) has thrown 15 TD’s to 8 INT’s. And on 3rd downs, you claimed Orton sucks but over the past two seasons Orton has 13 TD’s to 8 INT’s not great but not horrible,, especially when compared to Kolb on 3rd down over the past two seasons just 2 TD’s to 2 INT’s while completing just over 50% of his passes.
If someone could bring a factual argument on Kevin Kolb as to why he has this “high ceiling” and why he could be a “franchise QB” I am more than willing to listen, but for now all I have heard is “He was trained by a QB guru he must be good” (That worked out really well for AJ Feely and the Dolphins right) “The Eagles dumped McNabb for him” (Reid has a knack for letting players go when they are past it (See Dawkins, Brian) that did not mean that the Eagles new FS was an elite player, just that the Eagles felt it prudent to let go of their declinging superstar to get a prospect some playing time) and “He has won NFC Player of the Week twice in 7 starts” (Joey Harrington won an NFC player of the week award and Rex Grossman was named player of the Month for September of 06 and won an NFC player of the week award, how good are those guys?)
Produce a vaild factual argument for Grossman, anyone. I have yet to see anything. Yet the hype train steams on.
Your not willing to listen...
You’ve already made up your mind! LIke most people… At least be honest enough to admit that. Nobody here is going to change their mind anymore.
To me Kolb right now is like Rodgers in 08. He was ready to start and play, but needs game experience. Thats the only way he can get better. He’s not going to be as good as Rodgers, but he’ll become a very good NFL QB, IMO. His 1st year starting may not look great but then Rodgers went 6-10 in 08 and now he’s the SB MVP. Kolb is just slightly less talented than Rodgers. Best more you can make, IMO is to trade for Kolb. Otherwise start Danny Whites nephew for a year so you can draft Luck, w/ some Luck, next year!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Rodgers went 6-10 in 08
Yeah he did, but look at the underlying numbers and efficiency.
His 93.8 QBR would have ranked him 7th among QB’s this past season. His 7.5 YPA would have ranked him 8th this past season. His 63.6% completions would have put him 8th in 2010, his 4038 yards would have him ranked 5th in 2010.
Across the board in his first season as a starter Rodgers was a top 10 QB with room to grow into the player he is now.
You only have to look above to see why comparing Kolb to Rodgers is insane.
I didn't say Kolb was as good as Rodgers.
I know exactly what Rodgers looked like in 08. Sometimes he looked lost and slow, sometimes he was really good. But he also didn’t win! And that was a HUGE knock on him going into 09. Kolb at his best won’t be as good as Rodgers, but he will become a very good NFL QB, IMO.
Look I have no real rooting interest in this so I can be more objective than anyone here. Kolb might be the closest thing your going to get to a Franchise QB, save starting Danny WHites nephew and lucking into Luck!
I’m looking at alot more than numbers! I’m looking at body of work to date, some numbers and something called the eye test! Maybe you’ve heard of it. Instead of posting a bunch of numbers that mean nothing (unless they’re wins) you should be looking for how he handles himself and the game. Is the game too big for him? Can he play fast enough to be successful? Can he get better and grow into a Franchise QB? In all accounts I say Yes!
The only numbers that really matter in the end are “W”!!! The rest is junk for you to chew on and spew ad nauseum!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Play to win or go home!
Cards have never played to win in franchise history! Now is the time to step up or crawl under your rock. Which is it gonna be?
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
by Strohman on May 26, 2011 5:06 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Desperate decisions always lead to bad places. Smart decisions lead to good places.
Trading for Kevin Kolb right now would be a desperate decision for the Cardinals. A choice made out of desperation rather than based on actual merit.
Playing to win means making smart decisions. Trading a first round pick for Kevin Kolb, a guy who was outdone on all levels by Alex Smith in 2010, is not a smart decision.
by khodder on May 26, 2011 6:45 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
And where are you now?
And where have you been for the past 5o years, except for 2 years when you lucked into Warner? Yeah, that a REALLY Bad place you’ve been it… Can it get worse? Hardly!!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
this is true
strohman haha why are u on this site?
Meant to answer this earlier
but didn’t have time and couldn’t find it right away b4…
Nothing to talk about on Acme Packing Company… Not needs of the roster that are pressing and not any real big positional battles for players that hasn’t been discussed ad nauseum. Those will heat up againtill training camp and not before. Root for the Cards after my Packers win since I live in Scottsdale and would like to see them be successful. Alot more things to talk about w/ the Cards then w/ the Pack right now. Last good discussion was about whether Randall Cobb (our 2nd round pick) deserves to have plays designed for him. I personally don’t think a rookie should until he proves himself.
Just nothing worth discussing w/ the Pack at the moment, so I come here to get my football fix. LOL
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
dude
just switch over to the cardinals haha, u know the games are wayyy more entertainin. Were u born in AZ, or WI?
Born and raised in Green Bay!
Kinda explains my Packers fanaticism… I was one of the kids that gave their bikes to the players to ride from the practice field to the locker rooms. My family still lives in GB and one sister lives 3 blocks from Lambeau. I grew up bout 2 miles from Lambeau.
Moved to AZ bout 15 yrs ago.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Who did you switch from?
Couldn’t have been the Packers unless you were from AZ and adopted the Pack as a kid. LOL
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
haha i didnt switch
born and raised in AZ, been a cardinals fan forever. I was taught u go with your home town team no matter what, makes things a lot more fun. lol nevermind, u shouldnt switch, sounds like u bleed green and gold
sounds like u bleed green and gold
About that there is NO doubt! I went back to GB and was there for the SB. It was awesome. I was there for the SB in ’97 too. Moved 6 months later. You could see me on some TV scenes from GB after they won. I was partying in the streets of GB! LOL
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
If Kolb
is what the media hype claims to be he’ll be spanking Rodgers in the playoffs in Glendale season after season, why would you want the Cardinals to pick someone who can do that, if your a Packers fan?
Position by position
Up and down the roster and bench the Packers are far more talented and you know that! Try a new argument, that one is old and feable…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Really?
It’s a few pieces removed from the team that gave your beloved Packers a licking two seasons ago…All but one of those pieces have been replaced…Deeper, maybe…far more talented? get off your high horse.
Had Warner
stayed we would have gotten payback, and probably created quite a SB rivalry
Position by position
Rodgers great and getting better. Warner was great and wasn’t going to sustain anything he was what 37 yrs old? He wasn’t only going to get worse.
WR – Call it a toss up. Packers had the deepest set in the NFL, Cards had 2 great ones and Breatston who is nothing more than a good #3 WR.
RB – GRant over Hightower and Beannie the Bust. In the long run its up for debate, but unless Beannie can escape the BUst label it matter little!
OL – Packers hands down!
DL – We had more potential due to Raji but you had a slight advantage in play that year. Problem is we now have the best NT in the NFL.
LB – Again hands down the Packers. Matthews is a BEAST the likes of which you have nothing to offer. Barnett, Hawk are both better and w/o Dansby, the Cards are a train wreck!
DB- Packers hands down. Woodson, Collins, Tramon Williams, Better than Wilson, Rolle and DRC!
Cards now are nowhere near the SB Champion Green Bay Packers! As they have always done the Cards had ONE great season, one good one and then fell all over themselves breaking up a team! LOL
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Warner>Rodgers, no watter what
Don’t clutter reality with Kool-Aid, with all the names you just mentioned your beloved Packers could not beat the Cardinals in the Wild Card game of ’09, sure Boldin, Dansby, and Rolle are all gone, but what they done for their new teams? The NFC north is almost as bad the NFC west for crying out loud three teams got two tune up games for years…O line is a wash there buddy, Rodgers learned to release quickly because of the lousy line play in GB
warner<rodgers
nfc north is not as bad as the west….
Last Decade...
Which division sent more teams to the superbowl than the NFC west?
who cares....
arent we talking about last season?
No, just no
Aaron Rodgers is a great QB, but Kurt Warner is one of the best in NFL history.
Just a tip, this is ROTB. A Cardinals blog. Insulting Kurt Warner, #13, the guy who gave us two years of awesomeness, isn’t going to win you any fans.
im not insulting warner
im just saying that rodgers is better. He’s the best QB in the league
What about Tom Brady?
Peyton Manning? Matt Ryan? Michael Vick?
Aaron Rodgers is good, and definitely up there, but saying he’s the best QB in the league is a bit of a stretch. Maybe in a couple years, but not right now.
i think if u had to pick one qb
most people would choose manning or rodgers. its close, but rodgers is at worst 2nd or 3rd best.
Definitely
I’m not saying he’s bad. Not at all. He’s one of the best. But the best QB in the league debate is huge. Patriots fans say it’s Tom Brady, and they have reason to. Eagles fans say it’s Michael Vick, and they have reason to. Colts fans say it’s Peyton Manning, and they have reason to. And then, you have Aaron Rodgers, and you have reason to.
Personally, I think Peyton Manning is the winner, because without him, the Colts would barely have 4 wins, let alone be a Superbowl-contending team.
i would pick rodgers
for the simple fact that he is mobile. He’s got the arm, and can make plays with his feet
Manning or Brady...
Rodgers still has to build a resume
by Cardsfan928 on May 26, 2011 10:46 PM MDT up reply actions
we are not talking about who has had the better career.
we are talking about who is the best right now. rodgers won the super bowl while putting up crazy stats, i’d take him
To be considered great
or even tossed in the conversation of the best QB in the league, you most certainly have to take career performance into the equation, a guy who has a couple good seasons does not make him great
Rodgers is certainly on that pace though
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Even if his stats say Great?
He isn’t the NFL leader in career passer rating for nothing! Thats his career w/ a minimum number of starts. AND he is the career playoff record holder for playoff QB rating! How much more do you need?
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
no u dont...
lol he won the super bowl, i’d take him right now. If a 2nd year quarterback makes the pro bowl, i would consider him a great QB…i wouldnt claim its a fluke. And its a pretty sure bet that rodgers will be a top 2 QB for the next 7-8 years. Look at his first 3 seasons
Warner in his prime > Rodgers in his prime
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
maybe
rodgers will have the better career though, as long as he doesnt get hurt. rodgers first 3 season have been pretty good…
Well, Rogers
Also has the better team. Kurt Warner had to take two terrible teams, the Cardinals and Rams, and turn them into Superbowl contending teams. Remember, the Cardinals Defense during 2008 and 2009 was nothing compared to the Packers Superbowl team Defense.
Exactly how do you consider the ST L Rams
Circa “Greatest Show on Turf” a terrible team? Heck in those year Warner wasn’t even the best player on his team. THat was Marshall Faulk!
Rodgers is gonna be every bit as good as Warner ever was, probably better. He’ll win a couple MVP’s and more SB MVP’s.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Put your Kool-Aid down...
Rodgers has a loooooong way to go, before he is even in the class of Warner
What do you want?
Rodgers has the career high in QB rating. AND the playoff career QB rating record! That would seem to point to Rodgers having a better career!
How much more can he do?
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
His "Career"
Has another 6-10 years left in it. QBR being a fluctuating and efficiency stat it could be the best ever one week and then back into 2nd or 3rd the next.
If/When he maintains that mark for another 4 seasons we can look into this conversation.
he only needs about 2-3 more
seasons like his first 3 to equal warner’s career
Even in his 6-10 season.
He had what amounted to a winning QB rating. Even if his career is only 3 yrs starting the NFL surely has a minimum number of games started to qualify to make sure the one hit wonders aren’t included. Warner had 2 100 QB passer ratings in his career! Rodgers already has 2 in his first 3 seasons!! Enough said!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Right now
At this moment in time, Aaron Rodgers hasn’t played enough to equal Kurt Warner. He still has, like, 10 years left.
He’s not the greatest QB in the NFL. Will he be? Maybe. Probably at some point. But not right now.
Oh, and Kurt Warner is a lock for the Hall of Fame. Aaron Rodgers isn’t. Give him a few more years. But right now, Kurt Warner beats our Aaron Rodgers. But don’t get worried. Kurt Warner beats out a LOT of QB’s.
are u aware
that warner only had 5 great season? 5. Rodgers already has 3. and he has a super bowl win. He’s the best QB, he puts up monster numbers, and he is the defending champion. dont be such a homer
NObody
Is saying that Warner isn’t a HOF Lock are they? ANd noone is saying Rodgers is in the HOF yet are they? But as of NOW, Rodgers has as many great seasons as Warner ever had. Right now Warner is RETIRED! He quit the game, so Rodgers IS better. And if Warner were still playing he would be 40?, he aint better at 40 than Rodgers at 27! Get Real!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Again, fantasy...
You were politely asked to lay off the GB rhetoric by our asst. coach, Here’s a fact Warner was 38 when he made Rodgers look second tier, so if Warner had stayed he would have been 40 and still made Rodgers look second rate.
second tier??
they both looked amazing, just because warner’s team won doesnt mean that warner is a tier above rodgers
Your are NUTS.
Its not like they were going man on man. They were never on the field at the same time! WHat was it your DB’s said? something to the effect that Rodgers was the best QB they ever faced and hoped they would never play against him again! And they would rather face Brees than Rodgers any day!
At least try to be rational!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Rolle and Wilson
If memory serves. THis isn’t a one on one battle between Warner and Rodgers. Warner was great and Rodgers is great now. Which will be better history will tell, but right now Rodgers is well on his way to surpassing Warner.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I think DRC or Rolle said something like that
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Can't believe he made the Pro Bowl over Rhodes
What did Rolle do in New York that was anything special? Getting burned by Jordy Nelson for a long TD?
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
We are in a more efficeient pasing world in the NFL now
Over the last two seasons Rodgers QBR was 124% and 119% more than the league average. Neither of those marks led the league.
When Warner did it in 99 his rating was the best in the league at 136% of the league average. His 98.3 rating in 2000 was 128% of the league average and in 2001 when he went over 100 again it was 130% of the league average and once again the leagues top mark.
When looking at QBR across eras we need to compare it with QB’s from to gauge just how good they were, especially with the mountains of rule changes. If we look back to 1962 Bart Starr led the NFL in QBR with a rating on 90.2.
So with all these rule changes
rodgers is still only 6% behind warner. I’d take rodgers over warner in his prime every time. He’s just a winner
And Warner isn't a winner?
I guess taking the Cardinals, who have always been pretty bad, and turning them into a Superbowl team isn’t considered being a winner.
Aaron Rodgers is good. I’m not denying that. But Kurt Warner is one of the best. He’s a natural born winner who kept fighting. Aaron Rodgers inherited a good team. Kurt Warner had to start from scratch, and still turned them into instant contenders.
i said they are both great
i’d just take rodgers. Plus fitz, boldin, and breaston are better than jennings,driver, and james jones. I guess warner didnt have a jermichael finley though. And the cardinals werent contenders, they were thought of as the worst playoff team ever, they got hot at the right time and made a run.
He inherited a team that went 6-10!
How is that good? Thats Cards bad! Rodgers had to take over leadership from a Franchise QB that takes alot of leadership. Apparently you don’t think thats extremely difficult?! He had to EARN the leadership of the team, he wasn’t given it! And he did it under the most strenuous of situations!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Wait, wait, wait
Are you seriously saying that Aaron Rodgers’ situation was harder than Kurt Warner’s?
Aaron Rodgers was given a good team. Kurt Warner was given a pretty terrible one. Aaron Rodgers was allowed to learn behind Brett Favre. No one taught Kurt Warner anything.
This isn’t even a debate. Aaron Rodgers is a great QB, but at this moment in time, Kurt Warner is better.
Not at all...
Just pointing out that Rodgers didn’t take over in a great situation either. Yeah Rodgers say behind Favre, thats all… Not like Favre helped him. And taking over for a Franchise QB is one of THE most difficult jobs in sports! Anyone will tell you that. Do you have any idea of how hard to do that is?!
Warner also had a talented team in AZ, that lacked leadership which he provided. I would say they are similar in difficulty.
At this moment Kurt Warner isn’t an NFL QB! Is his career achievements better? Sure, he’s played 10 yrs more than Rodgers. But in 3 seasons Rodgers has achieved ALOT.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Kurt Warner
Masked a lot of the problems the team had. Which is why he’s one of the greatest QB’s ever. His overall play lifted the entire team’s playing standard.
Yes, Aaron Rodgers has achieved a lot in three years. But like I’ve been saying, at this very moment in time, Kurt Warner is better. Maybe in five years, if we have this discussion again, my opinion will be changed. But Kurt Warner was, and is, one of the best.
who cares if his situation was better?
rodgers is stilll better. I would take rodgers over a 2008 kurt warner. Rodgers is just better
In the end
It’s your opinion.
Just a note, this is Revengeofthebirds.com. I think you’re going to find that most people here like Kurt Warner over Aaron Rodgers. Just saying.
haha thats what i said 15 comments ago lol
Most fans would take rodgers over warner…just saying lol. Just because im a fan doesnt mean i have to always go with the cardinal, i go with who i think is the best.
No major rule changes...
Have been instituted since ’99 that make it suddenly alot easier to complete passes from 10 yrs ago! Just natural progression of players getting better. Poor argument! Same offensive systems, same rules = No Advantage!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
haha thats what i thought
but the QB rules could have affected the accuracy…maybe
You must have missed
The 5 yard contact rule. A pretty large development in the defense of a passing attack.
5 yd contact
Has been in place since when? About the early 90’s? That is since alot of rules were opened up to make passing easier. Either way I’m pretty sure Warner played his career under those rules. Your welcome to find a link to prove it was much more recently if you would like.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
that rule was made about 5-6 years ago
im pretty sure.
I don't think so...
Seems to me that its been in effect since before the Packers won the SB in "97. Someone can prove me wrong… With a link…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
You are right it was not a "new" rule
However it was a rule that was very scarcely enforced.
After the 2003 AFCCG is has been strictly enforced.
You can find links about the Ravens complaining about it, the Pats complainging about it.
It is the so called “Ty Law Rule”, despite it having been around, refs never threw flags for it. Now it is a point of emphasis for the zebras.
One cannot deny however that the passer rating numbers have been incresing big time in the past 5-10 years.
The simple fact that 8 of the top 290 QBR seasons of all time have come since 2004 and those who have a great QB rating in ther prior to 2004 are in the HoF or are named Milt Plum, Randall Cunningham or Kurt Warner.
Even look at the Career QBR numbers, Of the top 10 in that list 6 started their career in 2000 or later, the others are Joe Montana, Steve Young, Kurt Warner and Peyton Manning.
Were or how many of the top 20 QBR
seasons were Pre’ the rule change? When was the rule changed? The QB’s you mention are all among the top 10 of All time except Warner and thats up for debate. Are the great QB’s of today just making it look easier or is the rule change and supposed increased enforcement of it allowing them all to be successful?
Montana was before the supposed increase in enforcement wasn’t he? When were his SB wins and best seasons? He retired in 94, so its about the time I think the rule changed. Or at least before the empahsis that you allege was taking place.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
He retired in 94, so its about the time I think the rule changed. Or at least before the empahsis that you allege was taking place.
My point was this. To be up their in the numbers you are either one of the greatest QB’s to ever step on the girdiron, or you played post 2000.
Steve Young retired in '00...
Thats another one outside you enforcement time frame.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Young
- by this list…
Got a link to the top 20 QBR seasons? Can’t find it on google…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Sure Do
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm
Career Passer Rating, (Young and Montana the only two in the top 10 that did not play in the past decade)
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_single_season.htm
Single Season Passer Rating records;
Of the 51 seasons of over 100 QBR, 25 of them have been post 2000.
Passer rating.
Only says a little about what a QB has to do to be successfuil. Leadership is extremely important among other things. What counts towards being great more? Passer rating or SB’s?
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Personally I would err more towards indivual acheivement meaning more as to whether a player is elite (Great) or not.
The Superbowl is a team acheivement, one could very easily argue that if say Archie Manning and Terry Bradshaw swapped places in the 70’s Manning would have 4 rings and Bradshaw would be known by nobody. It was the defense, running game and big play receivers that made those Steelers go.
Agreed
The most impressive statistical season any Quarterback ever had in my opinion is Dan Marino’s 5000 yard season in the 80s because the rules back then were different and it was tougher to throw the ball back then.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
As we speak...
Rodgers has the career high in QB rating. AND the playoff career QB rating record! That would seem to point to Rodgers having a better career!
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Go home troll...
Warner still holds the records that count in the post season, and Rodgers has had some durability issues
What records does Warner hold?
If Warner played in todays NFL he would be ALOT more injury prone do to concussions than Rodgers. Rodgers doesn’t have any durability issues at all. Just needs to learn to slide, which I’m sure he will do alot more of!
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Keep in mind
That Kurt Warner was never drafted. He didn’t get the chances Aaron Rodgers got. He didn’t get to learn behind Brett Favre.
And he holds the record for most passing yards in the Superbowl, plus numerous others. Look them up, Kurt Warner holds a TON of records in the NFL.
I'm perfectly aware of Warner.
Not being drafted… Guess who’s training camp he was in before anyone elses? Thats riiiight, the Green Bay Packers! LOL But we already had 3 good QB’s at the time… Favre, Hasselbeck and a developmental QB, I cant remember.
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Mark Brunell I think
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
All of the rules that have been changed to benifit the offenses and protect Quarterbacks would help Warner out though
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
hes not a troll
just because he disagrees with your opinion. look at their stats dude. rodgers first 3 years have been amazing
Bias is a wonderful thing
WR – Split
RB – AZ. Grant had Rodgers and a better Oline, but he isn’t very talented.
OL – Packers by a good margin.
DL – Cards in a landslide. Its your OLB’s that are good, outside of Raji, who do you have?
LB – That’s easy, Cards. JK, obviously the Pack
DB – Split. Bias comes the strongest here. I heard all year how much the Pack needed a 4rd DB and better safety play. AW is a potential HoF guy just like Woodson. Everyone is a toss.
Don’t let your bias show too much
by Jesse Reynolds on May 26, 2011 9:28 PM MDT up reply actions
Thank you
Williams vs. DRC is a matter of opinion, when DRC had a mirage of a pass rush he was at the top of the DB list.
Williams vs DRC
Last year hands down Williams! He got robbed and didn’t get named to the Pro Bowl. He was our #1 CB last year and always took the #1 WR, over Woodson I might add! Wood played some of the bigger more physical WR, but was mostly used to cover TE’s and in run support and blitz. Why his INT totals went down. Tramon Williams has 15 INT’s in last 3 seasons and this year was his only year as the starter. DRC has 13 INT’s in 3 seasons. Its close, but given that Williams keeps getting better every year and DRC has taken a step back, like you all admitted, Williams gets the nod!
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u gotta be kidding.
we were 5-11 last year, the packers were champions….try not to let your bias show too much.
the secondary isnt even close...
wilson is below average in coverage, DRC gets beat too much. Greg Toler is below average. Kerry rhodes is decent. the packers are easily better! u gotta be real about your team
Never said
the Packers are not a better team, but to say we don’t even come close to matching their talent is an insult. Then i brought up the point that the Cardinals are a few players removed from the team that won the highest scoring post season match up in history, Warner, QB…The position we have not found a suitable replacement for. So yes saying that all the talent on the Cardinals is garbage angers me, because the Cardinals have plenty of talent just missing it in an important place.
to be fair
we were 5-11 this year, we sucked. I dont think we come close to matching their talent
Could the Cards lose 15+ player to IR
And still win the SB? Packers are far more talented top to bottom. They have backups that are better players than the Cards starters. Barnett goes down Bishop steps in seamlessly. Burnett our SS goes down Peprah steps in a plays very good football. Tauscher goes down Bulaga steps in plays better. Driver misses games, Jones and Nelson pick up the slack. Even lossing Jermicheal Finley, maybe the most talented TE in the league and our starting RB in Grant, didn’t prevent them winning the SB. Could the Cards have done anything close? Not a chance…
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A dub can cover....
Father time is just catching up with him, and having a torn hip sure doesn’t help much, remember the Dallas games when Jason Witten shredded…O wait that’s right Wilson kept a lid on the best TE’s
by Cardsfan928 on May 26, 2011 10:04 PM MDT up reply actions
no he cant....
i know u watch the games, he gets burned by TE’s all dayy!
This last season
yes, but take a look back in time
by Cardsfan928 on May 26, 2011 10:08 PM MDT up reply actions
If that's the case
Then it’s a wash, since what Goodson gets over Adub in coverage Adub gets just as much on the end of laying the wood to an RB
by Cardsfan928 on May 26, 2011 10:08 PM MDT up reply actions
charles woodson is great against the run...
he might be just as good as wilson against the run at this point
No DB
in the league lays the wood like ADub, this is not even up for debate.
by Cardsfan928 on May 26, 2011 10:47 PM MDT up reply actions
4 or 5 years ago
hes old and slow now…face it dude. hes still a pretty damn good player, but he isnt what he was
the last 3 seasons...
he has been getting progressively worse.
Woodsons' done that to Whitten on a couple occasions!
Woodson plays alot of TE in the Packers scheme. And he has a DPOY on his side. What does A-Dub have to match that?
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Not even close to a DPOY
DPOY carries far more wt… If Woodson wasn’t such a shutdown CB his entire career he would have alot more sacks. He just hasn’t been used in that way much unitl Capers got a hold of him. Woods got 13.5 47 INT’s, 22 FF and 10 TD’s. Wilson has 22.5, 25 INT’s, 12 FF and only 2 TD’s. And turnover plays mean ALOT more than sacks. Woodson even has quite a few more tackles in the past 2 seasons.
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your right dude
some people on here are just not realistic about their team
Woodson's pretty awesome
I’d say their strengths lie in different areas. Woodson is the better overall player, but I think Wilson is the best at what he does.
lol exactly
i assume he means run support, but i would definitely say that woodson is at least as good in run support as wilson. The fact is, wilson is old and slow, he’s still a pretty good player, but he isnt what he once was
Woodson's tackle numbers
The past 2 seasons are quite a bit better then Wilson’s. So that arguments doesn’t work either. LOL
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actually
they are almost identical, 166 combined tackles for woodson, 162 for wilson.
Nobody plays in-the-box quite like Wilson
He definitely wasn’t himself last year, I’ll say that. It’ll be interesting to see how he rebounds from injury. Even though he played through it all year, he’s getting to the age where it might not be such a sure bet to bounce back.
You have to remember, you’ve had a competent front 7 the last couple years. That means a lot in regard to what your safeties/secondary can do, especially in a 3-4. Even Tramon Williams looked good last year ;)
True
But a good front 7 also take tackles away from Woodson. I hope Wilson can play like he used to, but I’m not sure he can. Woodsons playing w/ an assortment of injuries too and he might be older than Wilson.
TRamon should have made Pro Bowl, he was our shutdown CB last year. Keeps getting better every year. And we lucked out a little w/ Shields playing like a 1st round pick. THat freed up Woodson a little.
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he wasnt himself last year because he is old
his athleticism is leaving him.
but yet
he is still the most feared SS amongst his peers….Strange…It was Rodney Harrison
Rodney Harrison
Not a playmaker? He is one of the best SS’s to ever play the game. He is the best blitzing S to ever play (Sorry Wilson’s Larry and Adrian) and in him prime (1998-2003) he was feared as a ballhawk and hitter.
Just go find some games of his in 2000, arguably the greatest season ever produced by a safety.
Wilson Was one of the best SS
But he is well into his 30’s slowing down and a liability in coverage. He had a great career, but its about over as far as being feared as a playmaker. As a hitter, he can still intimidate, but he won’t be a force as a playmaker anymore.
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It's getting more obvious
you don’t the actually watch the Cardinals play, I guess you didn’t see him flying around the field in week 1…
ONE game!
Your pointing out ONE game… And the first game of the season, when everyone is fresh and healthy! What about when your in wk 11 or later, and the body is beat up and age becomes a factor, cuz you can’t recover as quickly between games?
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Strohman?
Wilson Was one of the best SS But he is well into his 30’s slowing down and a liability in coverage. He had a great career, but its about over as far as being feared as a playmaker. As a hitter, he can still intimidate, but he won’t be a force as a playmaker anymore.
Well into his 30’s??? He’s 31! lol
by Nick Thoreson on Jun 2, 2011 1:26 PM MDT up reply actions
OK so 32 during the season...
But he also plays a very physical brand of football which takes more out of you. I don’t think he’ll be the playmaker he once was. Hopefully for you and the Cards he does and proves me wrong.
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The fact he played 15 games with a turn hip abductor in 2010 did not help his cause at all.
Wilson is a Workaholic, probably the guy on this team who is in the best shape of anyone.
It may have been vs Bradford and the Rams, but that first game of the season he had 2 picks and a sack. I think he is still good enough to play 2007-2008 type Wilson football, but not his prime years from say 03-06
poor guy
He played hurt all year. How many other players in the NFL did that too? If he played he was hurt, not injured. There is a difference… At least on teams that don’t make excuses.
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Maybe you should read up on what motions a hip abductor is responsible for and then imagine tying to play a game of football without those ranges of motions being fully available to you.
It was a torn abductor muscle that required surgery after the season to reattach the muscle.
There is a difference between hurt and injured. Wilson was legitimately injured. Most players in the NFL play 15 games hurt.
I have a degree in Execise Physiology!
I know all about what the hip abductor does! Thats not the point… If he’s playing he’s hurt, not injured. If he’s injured he shouldn’t be on the field. Still making excuses I see…
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Wilson still played well
Just down from the level of our expectations of him. I am sure that many teams in the NFL would love to have a 31-32 year old Wilson on their team.
It takes a man to play through that injury and he did. Most NFL players won’t play through injury. And I rather have an injured Wilson over a healthy backup.
by Jesse Reynolds on Jun 6, 2011 1:52 PM MDT up reply actions
Agree alot of team would still want him.
He’ll be a good player and productive player for a few more years. I just think his days as a consistent playmaker have past. We’ll see next year.
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So when a guy plays on a broken leg (Say Bryon Leftwich in college) he was not injured just hurt.
Gotcha.
Just becasue he was able to tough it out and play on does not mean that he lost a huge amount of his effectiveness by playing through this INJURY.
No you didn't...
If the training staff allows a player to play w/ an injury that might be made worse, then blame falls on the training staff for allowing that player to jeopardise his future! That goes against the athletic trainers code of conduct and he should be fired! In no situation should an injured player be allowed back on the field. If no risk of further injury is present it becomes a matter of pain tolerance. A torn muscle can get worse by creating damage to a joint.
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And what if the staff did not know about it becasue Wilson did not want to miss most of the season, such as he did in 2007.
He was never listed on the injury report, he even played in the Pro-Bowl with a torn muscle that required surgery.
What implications playing with that INJURY could have are not my place to debate, I would not have a clue, but I do know that he was injured, and injured to the extent that he needed surgery to repair a torn muscle after the season.
And a blocked field goal
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
AND
Harrison is one of two people in the 30-30 club
Good for him!
What does he have to do w/ the Cards? Means he might make the HOF, but Wilson wont… Is Harrison a Cardinal?
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Go watch the season opener, forget
Since you’ve clearly forgotten (PUN!) what a healthy A-dub can do.
Wasn't his injury around the end of that game?
I remember him being down of the field at some point around the end of the game.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Even LeRoy Butler has better numbers
With 20.5 sacks and 38 INT’s, He was the original 20/20 guy, at least in the modern era. And it seems unlikely LeRoy is going to the Pro Football HOF.
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and Adub
holds the records for most sacks by a DB EVER…and he is the only player to force a fumble and take it for a touchdown, not once but twice…go away if your gonna bash the Cardinals trolls…
Two 99 yard Touchdowns in one season
One on a Pick 6 against Atlanta, and a fumble return against the Vikings in 06.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Big Deal
Ahman Green is the Only RB in NFL history w/ 2 90+ yd TD runs and he isn’t going to Canton! Start trying to be RATIONAL!
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Not a great argument. Both Green and Wilson are among the best players at their position during their generation.
LeRoy Butler was probably better than Wilson, but he also had the benefit of being in Green Bay while the media loved them.
Wilson spent his prime years from about 02-06 on a team nobody gave two craps about.
but strohman's point was that
just because a player makes some big plays, does not mean that he is a hall of famer
And my original comment was about Wood!
Then I remembered the original 20/20 guy and looked him up to confirm what I already knew! Better career than your HOF hopefull Wilson! No matter how you slice it!
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Packerts historically
Have fewer Pro Bowlers that alot of other SB winning teams! How many times has Dallas had 8 or 9 and not won? But even in Packers SB years they usually had 6 at most!
LeRoy played his first couple seasons under the VERY forgettable Lindy Infante regime!
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Pro Bowls since the early mid 90's are crap
Ever since fan voting got involved it has been nothing more than a popularity contest.
1993-1998 when Butler was arguably the best safety in the league and in his prime he made 4 pro-bowls in 6 years.
Personally Butler is/was a better player than Wilson, but the gap is not that big, and part of that gap is due to the fact that Wilson spent his prime in obscurity at Sun Devil stadium while Butler spent his playing on national TV at Lambeau on a Superbowl winning team.
So your saying that
Butler IS better, but only cuz he played at Lambeau? THat makes absolutely NO sense! And like I noted, Butler played for a couple seasons under the very forgettable Lindy Infante! Packers were a bad team then too…
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No
I am just saying that more people got to see how good Butler was. He is at this stage a better safety than Wilson.
And the Infante regime was one year on ST’s and one year of starting. It was before he made his way into the upper echelon of safeties. Then Holmgren arrived, the Pakcers took off, Butler was in his prime as the Packers were contending fro the SuperBowl every year and got a lot of exposure becasue of that.
Wilson was in his prime when the Cards were competing for the #1 overall pick year in year out. He did not get exposure, and that does not make him a better player, but it does make him a player who is underrated by a lot of people becasue they never saw him play his best football.
Wilson got alot of love
During the Cards couple good years w/ Warner at QB. And he was a multiple Pro Bowler even before that. How did he lack for recognition or exposure?
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When Warner was here
07-09. He was in the last year and then past his prime, and he still got a lot of love as the 3rd best safety in the league. Adrian was at his best from 03-07. All but one season of that was spent in mediocrity at Sun Devil Stadium.
He made his first pro-bowl in 06. Funny how when the Cards started coming into media attention, Oh around 08, Wilson despite not being at his best has made three straight Pro-Bowl and a 1st and 2nd Team All-Pro bid?
Wilson was at his best when the media knew nothing and did not care about Arizona, he was never given plaudits until the team played well, and then he began getting undeserved plaudits (His 2010 pro bowl berth was a joke)
Pro-Bowls and All-Pros are driven a whole heap by media. Better teams get more media exposure so the casual fan and the sports writer see them more often.
Pro Bowl
Just for referrence. Tramon Williams was one of the best CB in the NFL last year. And Raji was the best NT in the NFL and neither of them were elected to the Pro Bowl. Players often get overlooked in Pro Bowl voting until after they have a couple of great seasons. Its like they have to build up the credibility for a couple seasons before anyone recognizes how great they are. That happening to Wilson isn’t out of the ordinary, Its almost expected to be that way now, unless you enter the NFL as a high 1st round pick w/ a reputation.
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Tramon Williams
Did make the Pro Bowl, how are you a fan of the fudge packers and not know that????
by Nick Thoreson on Jun 2, 2011 1:33 PM MDT up reply actions
I did not say anything about canton!
I was just saying what he freaking did in 2006.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
I was just adding it to the post above mine
I don’t see anything wrong with that.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Just like I added the Ahman Green comment.
I don’t see anything wrong w/ that.
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Nothing wrong with it at all
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Apparently
You don’t check records much either? The Cardinals were 9-7 when they staggered into the post season…and 10-6, one loss being to the Packers when Kurt Warner showed everyone he is better than Rodgers, and let’s not forget Rodgers is in his prime, Kurt, well he was often refered to as the grey beard.
warner is the man
but if i can pick between warner and rodgers, im takin rodgers everytime
You're kidding, right?
He was one of our best rookies. He was literally one of the few bright spots of last year.
He had the ability to
It is the Whis “slow play” he always holds rookies back lets them learn off the field and then break out in their 2nd season.
We did it wil Wells and DRC and now Williams and I am willing to bet we do the same with Peterson.
he plays guys when they are ready
he obviously wasnt. but would u say dan williams is more valuable than ryan pickett? i know they play different spots, but still pickett is more valuable
Pickett can play NT too.
And probably just as well as Dan Williams. Pickett is 30 and aging and Williams is getting better. Williams would be lucky to have a career as good as Pickett has had tho. He is one of the better run stuffing DT/NT guys in the NFL and is pretty unappreciated.
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i dont think he can justify not playing peterson for very long
there’s no chance toler is better than him
Starting Bryan Robinson
Was mostly tradition. Bryan Robinson stayed back a year to teach Dan Williams. Therefor, they started him. By the end of the season, Dan Williams was playing most of the minutes, which had been both his and Brian Robinson’s goal at the beginning of the year.
the best players play eventually
….dan didnt show he was better
Like I said
Dan Williams was playing most of the minutes at the end of the season.
And I can guarantee that you’re the only person here who thinks he didn’t play good. And not just on ROTB.
In two years
He may be. Granted the D. Williams talks is mostly based on potential. But Williams did play very well at the end of the season.
by Jesse Reynolds on May 27, 2011 11:53 AM MDT up reply actions
Very good vs Run
I haven’t seen him offer anything in pass rush. How about in college? Did he get QB pressure in college? or sacks?
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No, you're definitely right there
He’s a big, beautiful run-stopper. When he gets pressure it’s more from his no-quit motor than anything else. He’s our Casey Hampton, while Raji is your Haloti Ngata.
That said, if we had any legitimate pass-rushing threats (say, at OLB) I would not be surprised to see him pick up the occasional sack. He’s not freakishly quick but he’s a lot for one guy to handle.
He rarely saw the field
He was a great boost to our goalline defense and saw more snaps at the end of the season, but he still only played something like 30% of our defensive snap last season.
He has huge potential and a big future, but last season he was nothing more than a role player.
Dan is unproven
Calais had a down year
Darnell is a bad fit for the 34 but a great player.
Raji had a breakout season and looks to be a star in the process.
Cullen Jenkins is an elite 34 end, he plays the role perfectly
Ryan Pickett is another very good DL player for the Pack
If you told me I had to pick one or the other this season, it would be tough, I would lean Packers. However if I had to take one for the next 5 seasons I would take the Cardinals.
Packers have a couple more young DL besides Raji!
Raji is the bell cow for sure, but the Packers drafted Mike Neal and he looked like a perfect replacement for Jenkins for this season, before he got hurt. CJ Wilson got alot of playing time as a rookie due to injuries and played better than most expected. Plus they just drafted Lawrence Guy and he is being projected as a possible starting LDE in a couple years! Raji is far and away better than anyone the Cards have and he’s at the most important position (NT). If one or 2 of the other 3 young DL turns out to be good then the Packers have the better DL. And given the way the Packers have developed their talent, that is very likely to be the case. Packers Advantage!
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Jenkins had 7.5 sacks in 13 games last year!
Better then everyone on the Cards. And Raji had 6.5 better than anyone on the Cards. That give us 2 out of 3 positions better, at least last year. Jenkins is leaving in FA soon, cuz of age, expense and injuries.
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It's easier
When the other team actually fears the pass rushing capabilities of your OLB’s. Last season our 3-4 Dline had 2 less sacks than our LB’s (13-15). How many sacks did your LB’s have? An LB threat as great as Mathews who had almost as many sacks as our entire LB squad did, forces defenses to change.
In 2009 our Dline combined for 19 sacks, half a sack less than our LB’s. My point is that having great LB’s makes the Dline’s job easier and is does vice versa when having a good Dline.
(PS, CC and DD both had 7 sacks in 2009 – the dudes can perform).
Statistical performance isn’t the true measurement of a defensive player. I’ve been a DC in HS for five years now and I have seen kids get selected to the probowl over my kids because of stats when they were clearly a lesser athlete. Not saying the Pack has lesser athletes, just simply that stats on defense can be misleading to true production ability.
by Jesse Reynolds on May 27, 2011 12:19 PM MDT up reply actions
Just a quick add on
Raji and Jenkins combined for 57 tackles, 13.5 sacks, 4PD’s and 0 FF’s
DD and CC combined for 112 tackles, 11 sacks, 3PD’s and 1 FF.
Is GB’s line clearly better or are they utilized differently?
by Jesse Reynolds on May 27, 2011 12:22 PM MDT up reply actions
this could have something to do with it
cards opponents ran the ball 526 times
packers opponents ran the ball 395 times.
that could explain the difference in stats.
Can you also say
That the Packers saw more passing plays? That could explain the differences in stats too.
by Jesse Reynolds on May 27, 2011 2:32 PM MDT up reply actions
Or
Becuz the D is dominant they get off the field in 3 downs and don’t have to stay on the field to get more chances for tackles! THats about THE most over-rated defensive stat there is. Great teams have alot of 3 and outs, instead of 10 play drives!
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They also had an offense that didn't
keep them on the field most of the game. I can’t find the stat but I believe the Cards defense was on the field more than any other defense last year or was in the top 3. That also plays a huge factor.
Being in the lead and being able to pin your ears back plays a factor.
Lots of things play a factor.
by Jesse Reynolds on May 27, 2011 5:56 PM MDT up reply actions
Great Defenses get off the field!
They don’t get stuck on for alot of 10 play TD drives… They get on the field and get off in 3 plays! Tackles is a meaningless stat for that reason alone!
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You'd call your defense great?
I’d call it good.
Saying tackles is a meaningless stat is a half truth. On defense most stats are meaningless but they are what get these guys paid the top dollar.
by Jesse Reynolds on May 27, 2011 11:05 PM MDT up reply actions
there defense was
waayyyy better than ours, so….
Never stated that
Do the 30 defenses that ranked above us last season mean they are great? GB was excellent in pass defense (5th) and scoring (2nd) but struggled in run defense(18th). Certainly very good, but not great.
Great is a word like genius or guru, overused and under appreciated. Pitt’s defense was great though not great enough to overcome GB’s offense, most notably Rodgers awesome performance.
I am attempting objectivity. I do not take arguments personal nor should either of you too.
by Jesse Reynolds on May 28, 2011 12:51 AM MDT up reply actions
This is why I have been harping about our run defense lately
Our sack totals will continue to look like crap when we fail so fundamentally as a defense. Can’t stop the run, no reason for the opponent to pass when it isn’t convenient for them, and that’s without the constant threat of play action.
I didn't say our D was great!
I said great D’s get off the field alot quicker! Packers just did that alot better than the Cards, which explains why all the tackles numbers mean squat!
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You did imply great
“Great defenses get off the field” Your exact words. Look, I’m done debating this point. ESPN has my back as they have DD and CC rated higher than your guys :D
Good debate!
by Jesse Reynolds on May 28, 2011 12:13 PM MDT up reply actions
Notice it didn't say the Packers great D.
I said Great D’s, so its a generalized statement
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I disagree with a few things
His TD/INT stats in the 4th that you mentioned are taken out of context. He never lead a 4th quarter comeback last year. So no, he’s not clutch which I remember is something a lot of Broncos fans on SBNation complained about when it came to Orton. It’s also one of the main reasons most don’t want to see him starting next year.
But for the rest, I would agree. Like I said in my previous post, I’m not sold on Kolb and view him as an unknown who’s a complete gamble risk. He could turn out like Schuab or Feely, or something in the middle which would be fine as long as he doesn’t cost us wins. When it comes to Orton, I can see him providing stability and good play at qb only if he has a strong OL and running game alongside.
by CanadianCard on May 26, 2011 10:02 PM MDT up reply actions
Orton, I can see him providing stability and good play at qb only if he has a strong OL and running game alongside
Part of the problem is he DOESN’T have those things. Orton might get you to middle of the pack and close to a playoff spot, but he won’t put you over the top! And Kolb will get you to middle of the pack next year, but also provide the opportunity to become a Franchise QB, something Orton will never do.
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by Strohman on May 27, 2011 1:46 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Most QB's
Need a solid defense to win games. It is only the greats like a P.Manning that can overcome a poor defense because of his ability to manipulate the clock and stay on the field for such long periods of time.
Denver did not have a great running game last season they averaged 3.9 YPC last season, and Orton still managed to have a really good season throwing the football.
Orton is a QB that can win without much of a running game, and really you need at least a solid defense to win game consistently on the NFL level.
Kolb based on what he did last season is not a large upgrade from what we had this past season, essentially all we are dealing for is potential, but I don’t think the potential there is worth the risk, especially when we have potential through the roof in Skelton.
skelton's potential is through the roof???
based on what? arm strength?
His arm, his poise, his accuracy (Yes he is accurate on the middle and deep levels), his release. the only thing really holding him back right now is the reported mental and verbiage issues.
he completed 50% of his passes man
and if he’s accurate in the deep and intermediate levels, his short game accuracy is his only problem, accuracy wise? i dont buy it. You think skelton has shown something, but kolb is garbage?
I don't get it either!
The guy was a 5th round pick for a reason. And in drafts where QB’s w/ the tools (as he and most Cards fans think) to become good QB’s get way over-drafted, Skelton still went in the 5th. If he has poise, an arm, accuracy and half a brain he should have been a 1st round pick. And I didn’t see anthiing in him last year to suggest he is gonna be Franchise QB by any means! Hell Flacco went to Delaware IIRC… Thats not exactly a higher level of competition compared to Skelton in college!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
First
He came from Fordham so his body of work is against competition against lesser athletes. That plays a factor. After reading his scouting report it was said that he really didn’t come into his own until later in college and that was why he garnered very little attention from the bigger colleges – if that’s true.
Second, I watched the film and he had 14 dropped passes (that would bump him into 58% range though that is speculative because even the great QB’s have dropped passes). I even wrote Sando about it and he actually wrote me back agreeing with my stance that he isn’t as inaccurate as he is made out to be.
I am not saying he is a franchise QB but his potential is definitely there. The ball leaps from his hand, he stays in the pocket and shows great levels of poise.
Again, he is a very physically talented QB, but that doesn’t guarantee success as we saw with Jamarcus Russel and other gifted QB’s who have crashed and burned in this league.
IF, and this is a big if, Skelton can learn the NFL game and play at its speed I see him to be a very similar QB to Flacco.
I do not want him to be our starter next year but I do believe he he CAN be a quality QB in the NFL. CAN being the operative word.
by Jesse Reynolds on May 27, 2011 6:18 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
He was also at Pitt
But he transfered because Pitt already had an established starter
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
by JoeCB1991 on May 28, 2011 1:57 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Which is what I meant when I said Pitt already had an established starter
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Flacco was pumped up HUGE by the media
Skleton was an afterthought.
How many teams would send a scout to a Fordham game. Maybe half, and they probably only spent one game there…
When the Media got involved with Flacco teams flew in from all around the place to watch him play.
He wouldn't have been an afterthought
If he had all the tools teams are looking for! Steve McNair went to a small black school and still got drafted in the 1st! If you show the skills they WILL find you! No matter where you play!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Don't look at the stats
Watch the tape.
When you watch you can see our receivers (In particular Breaston and Hightower) dropping simple passes. I think in his four starts the cards dropped 15-20 passes that were “catchable” and they were not a huge number of bad throws that our receivers bailed him out on either.
by khodder on May 27, 2011 9:10 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well which is it?
When I brought up the Rodgers/KOlb comparison you changed from looks to stats to suit you! Now you wanna switch from stats to looks? Can’ have it both ways to suit your argument buddy! Be Consistent…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
by Strohman on May 27, 2011 9:29 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
You cannot post entire game tape here
So I don’t what I can post is some numbers that reflect what I see when I watch the game.
Kolb was not plagued with drops, he throws a lot of short passes and then goes deep, has a lot of screens called for him (Not his fault) but he rarely hits the middle third of the field beyond about 6-8 yards, and that is an area with both Breaston and Fitz that the Cards love to attack, the void between the safeties.
Watch them, play, look at the numbers, does it back up what you saw. Cool, does it not? Well go back and see if you missed anything and then make a judgment
6-8 yards is between the LB not Safeties!
LB are easier to throw against aren’t they? Now your making crap up! Just to make an argument!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Reading Comprehension is important
Kolb but he rarely hits the middle third of the field beyond about 6-8 yards (Note the word BEYOND)
and that is an area with both Breaston and Fitz that the Cards love to attack, the void between the safeties. (Again note the word Beyond)
The Cards love to attack between the safeties, yet Kolb rarely throws in the middle past about 6-8 yards.
Now I am not making crap up, your reading comprehension just sucks
Comprehension.
All I said is that 6-8 yds is between the LB not Safeties. And LB are easier to thow vs than Safeties. Or do you disagree w/ that?
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
6-8 yards is between the LB not Safeties!
As a direct response to;
Kolb was not plagued with drops, he throws a lot of short passes and then goes deep, has a lot of screens called for him (Not his fault) but he rarely hits the middle third of the field beyond about 6-8 yards, and that is an area with both Breaston and Fitz that the Cards love to attack, the void between the safeties.
Would lead me to beleive your reading comprehension of the latter quote was not up to scratch when replying with the former quote.
6-8 yards is usually between LB’s yes, and in most instances it is easier to complete a pass vs the LB’s than the safeties.
But Kolb flat REFUSES to attack the middle of the field deeper than 8 yards. The Cards offense is DESIGNED to attack that exact spot.
Sounds like a match made in hell to me.
I'm sorry but that's not accurate as I've watched again and again the Kolb "film" per se....
… and he definitely can hit the intermediate routes over the middle as well as the long ball. I just have to say I’d be willing to bet that the Qb for AZ is either Kolb or Orton bar none. Give me a wager and I just might take the bet. It’s one or the other and I’m going to be okay with either. FO be damned or praised is what I say.
Apparently you missed the title.
6-8 yds is between the LB not safeties! I was responding to that particular statement of yours. Thats why I brought that out. As for your believing Kolb can’t or won’t throw down the middle of the field. You don’t even get to the NFL if you can’t or don’t! Teams would pick that out in film study and play coverage to the outside.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Are you slow. Honestly.
I never said 6-8 yards was between the safeties. Reading Comprehension.
but he rarely hits the middle third of the field beyond about 6-8 yards,
He rarely hits the middle of the field beyond 6-8 yards. He loves to attack between the LB’s.
and that is an area with both Breaston and Fitz that the Cards love to attack, the void between the safeties.
And that (Refering the the area in the middle of the field beyond 6-8 yards downfield) is an area the Cards love to attack.
Dude, seriously, go brush up on your reading comprehension it should not be that hard.
Part of the problem with attacking Kolb's stats as a starter is that he hasn't consistently been a starter
You can make the argument that he would have performed better in sub-par appearances with more preparation.
But I am not refering to him as a starter
I am refering to him in all appearences over the past two season in which he has thrown a pass.
Which introduces the whole coming-off-the-bench factor...
It’s a little bit of a slippery slope, but having thrown for 2000-or-so yards is a decent sampling…
Efficiency is the key not raw numbers
And efficiency wise (YPA, TD%, INT%, Comp%) Kolb has really struggled.
Kinda hard to be efficient when you don't get regular playing time isn't it?!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
The Ugly Truth is that sometimes you have to take a chance to escape mediocrity.
even if it means trading a draft pick
by CardsDefense on May 26, 2011 5:03 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
It does, no doubt
But you also need to put the time in a look at who we are trading for. Throw away all names;
Drafted in the 2nd round 4 years ago. Since then he has started 7 games. Over the past two seasons he has thrown more INT’s per 100 attempts than Derek Anderson and Jimmy Clausen did in the 2010 season. He has a QBR over the past two seasons would place him worse than Kerry Collins in 2010. His completion percenatage, his best area is still only mid table and was worse than the likes of Chad Henne and Jon Kitna in the 2010 season. He throws less TD’s per 100 passes than Alex Smith did in 2010.
Alex Smith in 2010 compared the this guy in his last two seasons has a better TD%, a better INT%, a better YPA a better QBR and compeltes more of his passes. Yes the same Alex Smith of the 49ers.
Are you willing to trade a 1st round pick+ or Two 2nd round picks for a player that has performed to those levels?
But you also need to put the time in a look at who we are trading for. Throw away all names;
Something you clearly haven’t done!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I was refering to the name of the QB being described, not comparions.
If you had never heard of the QB, and he put up those stats last season compared to those other players you would be saying he is closer to out of the league than having a first round pick traded for his services.
Kinda like
I was describing Kolb and Rodgers positions in their careers w/ Rodgers in 08 and Kolb now. Except you made it a comparison of numbers. Be consistent!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
amen amen and amen
I went on the radio to make this same argument about 2 weeks ago and the guy laughed at me. once i got off the air and listened the radio personalities pulled up his INT numbers and said “well he does throw a lot of INTs”, I do not want Kolb on my team. If we got him for a 2nd I would be happy but please dont give up a 1st. let someone else make that mistake.
Never do card tricks for the group you play poker with.
Personally I would absolutely trade a 1st for Kolb
but if we can get him for a 2nd I’d be ok with that.
by CardsDefense on May 26, 2011 5:18 PM MDT up reply actions
On TV just a little while ago.
They said a 1st or 2 2nds to get Kolb. Either way he may not lead you to the playoffs this year, he probably isn’t experienced enough for that. But give him a full year of starting under his belt and IMO he’ll be a top 10 NFL QB.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
It is clear you are really high on Kolb
Yet you have not backed up that beleif with anything factual. All you have said is that he is worht a first round pick and that you think he will become a Franchise QB (And in turn play on the level of a Brees, Brady, Manning, Rivers, Rodgers for an extended period of time)
If I was told now Kolb would become Matt Schaub. Trade two 2nd round picks for him, now, get it done. But I don’t think the kid ever gets close. He has proven nothing but mediocrity so far in the NFL, and just becasue he is the son of a coach does not make him any smarter, or a harder worker than QB X, Y or Z.
have u actually watched his games?
he shows the ability to make plays. he had two bad games this year, but one of them was dallas at the end of the season, that was after they had clinched their playoff spot. im sure the cards have done more research than u guys, so if they think that kolb can be the man, i think its fine that they give 2 2nd rounders for him. There is a reason why people around the nfl think so highly of him.
I have watched each and every throw he has made in the NFL over the past two years.
He throws off the backfootb far to often. He fumbled very easily becasue he carries the ball badly in the pocket. He has a tendency to stare down receivers and throw horrible interceptions.
He is all or nothing. He checks down more than Matt Leinart ever did, and is horrible in the intermediate passing game. I mean something stupid like 37% of Kolb completions in 2010 were made on throws that did not even pass the LOS.
hmmm haha ok then
u an eagles fan or something?
Nope
Cardinals fan that is not going to enjoy watching this team take a step back if we trade for this kid.
lol
i was wondering how and why u watched every pass thats all. Also he is an upgrade over DA, so i dont thiink we will take a step back. Its still up in the air whether or not he is worth the 2 2nd rounders
It could be a step back
by the loss of draft picks if he is nothing better than mediocre. We can get mediocre for less.
can we?
The second round hasnt produced many QB’s lately, lol the best one in a while is kolb
Jake Plummer and Drew Brees
Are the only two second round QB’s to make a pro bowl out of 16 selected from 1996 till now.
Warning this is a Niner article but has some good info at the beginning.
I remain skeptical that the Eagles want to trade a guy who has franchise potential. I am skeptical after seeing his completion % on throws past the LOS. I am skeptical because his stats are subpar and his style is eerily similar to Leinarts.
Peoples devote faith in Kolb is just as crazy as anyone who believes Skelton can start next year.
by Jesse Reynolds on May 27, 2011 6:23 PM MDT up reply actions
Well they can't play 2 franchise QB's at once can you?
And if they don’t trade him now, he walks as a FA! Which would you do?
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
How is it suspicious
If you yourself admit that he can’t get on the field in Philly? Its perfectly logical, not at all suspicious!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Even if he was
Don’t the Kolb supporters find it a little strange that Philly fan and Eagles are trying to get back the same amount of draft stock they put in to this guy?
Philly fans
Many of them think the world of Kolb. Some are so high on him they think we should bend over and say thank you but don’t bother with the lube. Some think he’s crap. Nothing strange. All pretty typical.
Two bad games?
Which one of the Green Bay, Tennesse and Washington games were not “Bad”
And two bad games out of 7 is a pretty bad ratio too. I mean he “only” had two bad games he also “only” had two good games.
the washington game was not bad.
it was average. Your concerns are valid, i just think that he is worth the risk
Dear Khodder
Thank you for putting together this analysis. I appreciate you putting in writing all the reasons why we should absolutely NOT trade for Kevin Kolb. I live in PA and am friends with a ton of Eagles fans. I watch a lot of Eagles games, and I have also watched film of every throw Kolb has made in his NFL career. I absolutely do not see any indication that he will become a franchise QB. He struggled early and often, fumbles way too much, doesn’t make smart decisions, and isn’t worth a 1st round pick. I believe that he is just as likely (possibly more) to be a bust as he is to be succesful.
I don’t pretend to know who the answer at QB is, but I have my preferences just like eeveryone else (Manning is my preference). However, Kolb is very far down on my list of preferences at QB for my beloved Cardinals.
Sincerely,
Rob
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
by robloosli on May 26, 2011 8:07 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Preferences are hard
Personally Orton for a 3rd rounder would be where I would like us to look. However the further we get into a lockout, the more I would just ride Skelton.
Preferences are what makes this game go
Coaches, GMs, fans all have preferences. That’s why some meediocre players get paid more than others and why some terrible players are handed the keys to a team—see Anderson, Derek.
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
wow a lot of people on here watch film on other teams players....
why arent u guys working for a nfl team?
Because no one wanted to pay me to watch film
Truth is, I don’t sleep much. I played football in high school and college, and truly love the game. I eat, breath and sh*t Cardinals football, and I watch film because I want to see what the Cardinals are looking at.
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
fair enough
idk, he only played in 5 full games last year. I think he is worth the risk
Nice thing about having an opinion
Is that it really can’t be wrong. Honestly, I don’t want any of the available QBs. Problem with thta is that no one we currently have can get the job done. I’m just not sure anyone available can either. Unless we sign Peyton Manning. He is available as of now…
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
As soon as we were in the running for Kolb
I went into a nice little site cann tenyardtorrents can grabbed myself the games Kolb has attempted a pass in to see what we were in for.
I love the debate.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
This is the best discussion I have seen in a long time
Obviously the best since the lockout started
by Tyler Nickel on May 27, 2011 11:06 AM MDT up reply actions
It's fun to just read it all
I don’t even want to jump in due to fear of getting stomped on haha
by Tyler Nickel on May 27, 2011 11:07 AM MDT up reply actions
just saying..
matt schaub didnt have great stats in ATL, he just had a couple good games. and he turned out ok for houston
But the thing with Kolb is that nobody knows how he'll turn out
So is trading a 1st round pick worth it? Houston got lucky but will we be as lucky? Only history will tell.
by CanadianCard on May 26, 2011 9:46 PM MDT up reply actions
oh ya its a risk
but i think it is one that the cards should make. I think, like schaub, kolb has shown flashes of brilliance.
But the thing with Kolbs Brilliance
Is this;
The games everyone points to are ATL and SF this year and NO last year. All three of those were defenses who struggled to get much of a pass rush and had some holes in their secondary.
Kolb vs ATL was solid, but he got big chunks on horribly blown coverages. The 78 yard TD to Maclin there was not a Falcon defender in sight. On the other hand he threw the ball into a tiny window for the Jackson TD.
For me Kolb is at his best, like most QB’s when he has time, but when he is getting pressured, that is when he shows he is not an elite QB, his movement inside the pocket is not good, he forces throws off the backfoot, often leading to interceptions, and when he does get him, he often loses control of the football.
Kolb is one of those QB’s where you can say, we attack him, collapse his pocket and leave 5 in coverage, we might get burned once, but it is going to pay off via turnovers in the long run.
What about the games that Kolb won
Offensive player of the week a couple years ago and threw for something like 400 yds in one and 350 in the other. Sure seemed like a potential franchise QB then didn’t he?
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
What about
The horror game vs GB, the shocker vs Tennesse, the shocker vs Dallas
For every good game there is a horrible game.
Go back and Watch Rex Grossman in his first four games in 2006 and you would think he was a world beater QB. That worked out well.
u could say that about any QB
u started out making some good points, now u r just hating. Are u forgetting that rex took the bears to the super bowl? he had a decent year. Kolb has done some good things, or else people wouldnt be high on him.
Rex had a horrible year
The running game with Thomas Jones and 1200 yards and the leagues 2nd best defense that managed to end the season with a +8 turnover ratio despite Grossman throwing 20 picks.
Here is a fun fact. Matt Leinart as a rookie ended the season with a better QBR than Grossman did in 06.
23 and 20 isnt horrible.
he won games, he had an average year. 54% completion is a bit low, but damn, he won 13 games. My point was that u could say that about any QB that has a couple of good games.
mannn your a hater
he was average, he definitely wasnt horrible. Again my point was that your reference to Rex Grossman could apply to any young QB that has a couple of good games.
I don’t think you will find anybody, probably not Rex’s mother or Rex himself that would say that he won the games or that he took his team to the Superbowl.
he didnt exactly fail
he got them to the super bowl, cant get much better. Like i said, an average season, no a horrible one. And one more time my point was that your reference to Rex Grossman could apply to any young QB that has a couple of good games
Average?
I guess if you think that being below the league average in every passing efficiency metric except TD% is average then I guess.
BTW just for reference he was below the league average in;
YPA, QBR, INT% and Comp%
fine, i dont wanna check your stats
so ill believe you. Statistically, he is below average. However he won 13 games, at least he didnt F it up. you ignored my real point, so obviously u dont want to talk about it lol.
So some games Kolb is great and some he's bad.
Thats part of being an inexperienced QB! But bad QB don’t have just as many great games as they do bad ones. Kolb as has been noted has had some great games against NFL defenses. Just as many as he’s had poor games. He needs experience, as has been noted repeatedly by me, to become more consistent! You don’t get experience by watching from the sidelines. You have to be on the field to gain that. Kolb has shown plenty to make a strong case for being a franchise QB, but he needs to play every game, every week, to get to that level.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Is that the same Wrecks Grossman
That started AHEAD of Orton in the bears SB year? If Orton is good he should have beaten Wrecks Grossman out for the job don’t you think?
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Grossman was a first round pick
Orton was a fourth. Different expectations.
by Jesse Reynolds on May 27, 2011 6:26 PM MDT up reply actions
Big Deal
Are you saying that in the SB they wouldn’t play the QB who gives them the best chance to win?!
REeality isn’t what you guys relate to if thats what you think!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
You don't bench the guy who has started the entire season
In the Superbowl to start a guy who has not taken a snap all season.
Objectivity
Is hard thing for some to grasp.
by Jesse Reynolds on May 28, 2011 12:53 AM MDT up reply actions
Yeah and
10 Kolb = ’10 Orton
BUT
’15 Kolb >>>> than ’15 Orton!
Again poor agrument!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
WHAT???
10 Orton>>>>>>>>>>10 Kolb
15 Kolb?15 Orton
Would be more accurate. There is no way you can say Kolb and Orton last season were equals. And right now we have no idea what is going to happen in 4-5 seasons.
YOUR opinion!
I stand by mine! Orton has had his chances to lead a team. He has NEVER even played in a playoff game, much less even led his team to the playoffs! What the hell kind of upside is there in a QB like that? He’s as good as he’s gonna get as a 6 yr vet.
What you could possibly see in a 6 yr vet, w/ NO playoff appearances whatsoever is absolutely beyond my comprehension! He is a nothing QB, who if he is lucky MIGHT lead the Cards to a 7 win season!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Only an idiot
would beleive that the 2010 version of Kevin Kolb was better than the 2010 version of Kyle Orton.
Honestly.
A 5 year vet with no playoff appearances.
Maybe it is maybe it is the 41 TD’s he has thrown in the past two seasons compared with just 21 INT’s.
His ability to to not turn the ball over. 29 possible turnovers in his last 28 starts as opposed to say Kevin Kolb 18 in his last 9 games.
I like Orton’s poise and his experience. His ability to throw accurately on short and intermediate routes while maintaining the ability to hit the deep route when need arises.
What could you possibly see in a 27(At the start of the 2011 season) 4 year vet who has thrown more INT’s than TD’s in his career and has hardly sniffed a starting gig let alone lead a team to the playoffs.
Potential greatness is what i see
In 5 starts with starters around Kolb that he finished he has 1528 yards, 9 TD passes, 6 INTs (2 of which came on last second Hail Marys), 64.7% of passes, 7.91 YPA and 1 rushing touchdown. If you extrapolate those numbers that would mean he would’ve had 4889 yards, 28.8 touchdown passes, 19.2 interceptions and 3.2 rushing touchdowns.
People underrate him because of the high interception total on his career, most of which came in spot duty early in his career and a start against Dallas where his LT was Austin Howard (who gave up 3 sacks to Ware) and his #1 receiver was Chad Hall.
by CardsDefense on May 29, 2011 1:02 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
So what about his fumbilitis
What about his horrible inconsistency, what about his poor perfromances againsst lower tier passing defenses such as the Tennesse Titans? What about his fit for the offense.
The risk is huge. Worst case scenraio, we trade a 1st round pick for an average QB who is then signed to a $10M+ a year deal for 6 years. We Suck Fitz leaves and we are looking at 2012 with a bad QB locked into a horrible contract, our franchise icon has left and we have no first round pick to fall back on.
Best Case Scenario I can see is we trade two 2nds for him and he turns out to be Matt Schaub like 2 seasons down the road.
What about Warners problems w/ fumblitis?
He had that problem for a couple years and he got thru it. Ball security is a pretty easy fix and something that can be learned w/ a little experience and a drill on it now and then.
How is the worst case of trading for Kolb and different than trading for Orton. Losing an extra 2nd is about the only difference. If you trade for Kolb, Fitz will re-sign cuz its the guy he wants. If you trade for Orton he may or may not re-sign. And the money isn’t a huge deal either, IMO. Kolbs contract w/ the Cards could easily be structured w/ a moderate signing bonus in the 1st season and a big roster bonus in the 2nd. If Kolb performs poorly you can cut him and losing only what you gave him in yr 1 salary and signing bonus. Kolb doesn’t have much of a track record so he won’t be able to demand huge money in the 1st year and only get more if he performs well in yr 1, to earn the rest of the contract. These are minor obstacles w/ relatively easy fixes.
Losing an extrra 2nd is the price you pay for someone with upside over a vet who hasn’t shown any ability to lead a team to the playoffs. Its a fair trade off, considering the trade for Schaub.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Trading for Kolb is no guarantee Fitz will sign. He wants to play for a winner regardless of who the QB is.
If we suck with Kolb, Fitz leaves, if we suck with Orton Fitz leaves, if we suck with Alien number 56 at QB, Fitz leaves.
Worst Case with Orton means you keep a 1st rounder and lose a 2nd or 3rd round pick. If you suck with Orton and Fitz leaves you still have that top 10 pick to grab a young QB and look to rebuild.
If you suck with Kolb the contract he will have as well as the lack of a first round pick handcuff you to him and don’t even give you a chance of drafting a young QB. Kolb has already stated he wants to get paid if he is traded ( http://1500espn.com/sportswire/Pelissero_High_price_in_picks_cash_limits_marketplace_for_Kevin_Kolb041411 ) Worst Case with orton you still have options, Worst case with Kolb you are jhandcuffed to a QB for another season at the least.
Contract.
Like I mentioned the contract can be stuctured so that Kolb isn’t signed beyond one year. The trade could include a condtional clause. Say a 2nd and a conditional pick depending on how he performs.
As for Fitz, soon as you trade for Kolb, You go to him and say, we got you the QB you wanted now lets get you extended to keep you in AZ. Do you think he would not sign an extension if you go out and get the QB he asked for?! I find it very hard to believe that he wouldn’t sign an extension if you just traded for the QB he asked for!
BOTH the trade and subsequent contract can be minipulated to decrease the Cards risk.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
1 – You think Kolb is going to accept that deal. He was stability and to get paid. He is not goign to accept a deal that is going to allow a team to cut him after one year unless it pays right out the backside for him, Upwards of $15M in the first season.
2 – Fitz is smart. He is not going to sign an extension based on a new QB arriving, He is going to want to see how the kid performs. No Fitz contract is getting done until post the 2011 season, and he is going to use the threat of testing the FA waters to bleed every cent out of this team IF he stays here.
3 – It depends on other people however. Are the Eagles going to accept anything that gives them less than a guaranteed 1st round pick? Is Kolb going to sign a deal that would allow his new team to cut him safely after 1 season? Is Fitz going to automatically sign on the dotted line becasue we traded for an unproven QB?
Kolb deal
He and his agent have to realize that his body of work isn’t the greatest and he is inexperienced, so they would have to consider it a fair contract. He still gets paid if he performs pretty well. You can use contracts signed by Rodgers and Romo. Rodgers had 7 starts when he signed. He got 20M in 1st compensation. Thats alot for one year, but if Kolb fails you can walk away from the contact and him.
If there are a few teams wanting Kolb that should increase his value. As it means more teams think he has what it takes to succeed. Otherwise they wouldn’t be involved in trade talks for him.
Since Fitz asked for Kolb tell him you want him to sign an extention right after Kolb is signed and traded for. These are EASY and reasonable considerations, IMO.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Fixed that...
Rodgers had 7 starts when he signed. He got 20M in 1st compensation.
Rodgers got 12.9M in 1st year compensation, not 20M. 20M was total guarenteed.
If you can sign Kolb to the 13M number w/ the rest coming in year 2, its not a bad contract. I don’t think thats out of the question given Kolbs numbers or lack thereof…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
you do realize
that you have negated all of your prior arguments by your first sentence above, right?
“He and his agent have to realize that his body of work isn’t the greatest and he is inexperienced,”
You have said repeatedly that he’s a franchise QB, won 2 player of the week awards, blah blah blah. yet in order to argue about something else, you acknowledge that what you’ve seen so far is underwhelming.
You have said repeatedly that he’s a franchise QB
No, I have repeatedly said that he has the potential to be a franchise QB. I think he will become one, but nobody knows yet. As of right now, Kolb has been sometimes very good and sometimes not very good. Its called inconsistentcy. Something that playing experience fixes. Don’t try to twist my words or turn them into something they don’t say.
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link...
First Pellissero used to write about the Packers. LOL Not that that means anything.
One scout on Kolb. “You really like his athleticism. He’s got size. He can throw the football. But for me, it’s just seeing the game, slowing the game down, being able to go through his progressions, make the right decisions.”
Seeing the game, the game slowing down, progressions and decision making are ALL going to get Much better w/ experience. Just sayin…
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Protect the pick
We can always protect the pick so that if it is a top 10 we keep it.
by Nick Thoreson on May 31, 2011 3:59 PM MDT up reply actions
As Warner has shown Fumbling is something that can be improved with coaching and hard work
Kolb needs experience to reach his true potential
by CardsDefense on May 29, 2011 6:30 PM MDT up reply actions
No doubt
let’s hope he doesn’t get that experience here in AZ
youre in the minority
According to the poll on another QB related article on ROTB. LOL
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The gloves helped too
From what I remember, the lingering effects from the hand injuries he had during his time in St. Louis made him more fumble prone.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
My bad
That should read…
’11 Kolb = ’11 Orton
Nothing on Orton’s resume points to him ever being a playoff level QB. Kolb will get alot better and become much more consistent in his play as he gets experience. He needs to play. He’s shown in limited opportunities he can be a very successful NFL QB. Just needs to find the home where he can make that happen.
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Talent and experience.
Kolb has talent but needs experience to get alot better. And its a reasonable expectation that he wil improve alot. Orton is who he is… A QB who has had chances and experience but has not shown the ability necessary to lead a team to the playoffs!
I don’t know the future, but I am making reasonable assumptions w/ reasonable expectations.
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I'm not saying
I agree or disagree with you, but I don’t get why you’re saying that. Strohman is right here. His guess is as good as your’s.
Let’s reverse this on you: So you can tell the future? You can tell that the future Kevin Kolb will do terrible? See how it works? It works both ways.
It's simple.
You are all arguing based on potential and Khodder is arguing based on actual performance. Orton has performed and played well, so far Kolb has been inconsistent. Sure we can make excuses for him that he didn’t have the full roster and yadda yadda but when push come to shove you either perform or you don’t and so far Orton has performed. I will take his stats and his “mediocrity” over the great unknown Kolb.
by Jesse Reynolds on May 29, 2011 8:22 PM MDT up reply actions
Experience plays a HUGE role in performance tho.
Orton has FAR more experience and has yet to reach the playoffs. Kolb has talent and potential on his side. He needs experience to show whether he can become a playoff caliber QB. I think he can…
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It is the Devil you know or the Devil you don’t know.
With Orton you know what you are getting and there might be a little bit of extra sauce caught in the bottom of the bottle if you give him an elite receiver and an offense that suits his playing style.
With Kolb you have no clue what you are getting, you could get Matt Schaub, you could get AJ Feeley.
Orton doesn't have a single playoff appearence!
What make you think there is more there than meets the eye?! He is what he is… A QB who hasn’t ever made it to the playoffs!
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Football is a team game, there is maybe three or four QB’s in the game today that can carry a team to the playoffs.
Look at when Orton has started, and look at his supporting cast. It has not exactly been a whole rank of All-Pro’s
2010 his leading rusher had 779 yards, his starting receivers were Brandon Lloyd, Jabar Gaffney and Eddie Royal and his defense allowed the most points in the league;
2009; his leading rusher had 947 yards, Eddie Royal and Jabar Gaffeny were his #2 and #3 receivers (Behind Marshall) the team was 6-0 going into the BYE.
2008 with the Bears his receiving core was Hester, Rashied Davis and Brandon Lloyd.
Looking at that you can see that Orton has done a lot with little over those three seasons; 59 TD’s to 33 INT’s with those supporting casts is nothing to turn your nose up at.
Facts are facts...
Keep making excuses. Seems to be something Cards fans are good at. Practice I guess.
Fact. Orton has not lead a team to the playoffs. And if you get Orton you’ll have a built in excuse for the next 3+ seasons, til you realize he isn’t a playoff QB.
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Khodder is right here
There are only a couple QB’s that can lead a team to the Playoffs by themselves.
But I guess leading the league in passing yards for most of last season means you’re bad, right?
Or it could mean they were behind all the time
And they had to throw to try to catch up. Thats not an unusual situation.
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Because Denver had one of the worst Defenses in the NFL last season
32nd in total yards given up, 26th in total plays they were on the field (we were 31st), 32nd in total points given up, 25th in passing yards given up, and 31st in rushing yards given up per game.
They couldn’t stop anyone on Defense last year.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Hate to say it but........
I agree with Strohman, I think Orton is getting a lot of hype for not a whole lot of substance. Let’s put it this way, would anybody be talking about trading our 2nd for Orton a year or two ago?? It is the same guy that was thrown in to the Jay Cutler trade as garbage. Just saying one ok year and a whole bunch of losses does not superceed the potential of KOLB.
by Nick Thoreson on May 31, 2011 4:04 PM MDT up reply actions
I would have traded a 2nd round pick for him before the start of last season no questions.
He was better in 2009 than he was in 2010.
And it is not like he sucked in 2008 either, 18 TD’s to 10 INT’s to the likes of Devin Hester, Rashied Davis and Brandon Lloyd.
Orton is not some one season wonder, he has been above average for the past three seasons 59 TD’s to 33 INT’s with right aroudn 60% completions and a QBR in the mid 80’s.
a 2nd? really?
Ugh he is a good stop-gap, see his resume, chicago-stop gap to cutler, Denver-Stop Gap to Tebow
by Nick Thoreson on May 31, 2011 4:10 PM MDT up reply actions
Those are losing numbers.
Barely one TD per game in a passing league. 60% completion % is the bare minimum teams wil allow in a starting QB. And a passer rating below 90 gets you alot of “L” in the Won/Loss column!
In the NFL today, winning football by a QB is about 30 TD’s, fewer than 15 INT’s and a QBR above 90 and close to 100.
Is it any wonder Orton has never made the playoffs? NO, he’s NOT a playoff caliber QB!
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Just saying one ok year and a whole bunch of losses does not superceed the potential of KOLB.
But two average-below average seasons and two no existant seasons with a couple of impressive performances jammed in there suddenly gives you this all important “potential”
"Potential"
Is being the first QB in NFL history to throw for more than 300 yards in your first 2 starts. That is why he has upside!!!!!
by Nick Thoreson on May 31, 2011 4:14 PM MDT up reply actions
Matt Leainrt threw for 400 yards vs Minnesota, Does that give him potential.
I mean it is still the NFL record for a rookie. Maybe the Texans got a steal for a player with all that potential.
Except that
Leinart went on to prove that it was a fluke and he wasn’t as talented as you wanted to believe.
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One could argue Kolb has done exactly the same with his horrid performances in 2010 and the willingness to trade Kolb and insert a 2nd year QB as their backup to an injury prone QB.
What the heck are you talking about?
Kolb was Vicks backup. And Kolb hasn’t had a chance to prove anything yet. He’s played sporadically for the most part. The Iggles offense was designed for VIck by the time Kolb took over late in the year. Vick and Kolb are completely different QB’s. Kolb does have to prove himself, but he hasn’t had the opportunity yet.
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Kolb was the teams starter right through OTA’s and Training Camp. He was #1 on the depth chart in the preseason and he started week 1 vs the Packers. The offense was designed for successful QB play not for any specific player, injuries hurt him last season (The concussion week 1) but he backed up up some great games (Atlanta) with horrible games (Tennessee) and that was when he knew he was starting, the team knew he was starting,
You dont' think that
10 weeks later the offense had been changed dramatically to accomodate VIcks unique abilities? Don’t be a fool… Heck the Packers made significant changes just going from Favre to Rodgers. And you don’t think Reid would have major differences between 2 vastly disparate QB’s like Kolb and Vick? Come on man…
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The changes from Favre to Rodgers happened over the course of a season.
All teams add and subtract plays from their playbook week in week out. Heck the long pass to Fitz in the playoffs vs Carolina in 2008 was drawn up on a plane about 3 days before the game.
The offense would have contained all the same terminology, it would have contained a large portion of plays that were run by everyone. Of course it would have had a “Vick package” but those plays would have already been in the playbook had Kolb been injured or not.
And the playcalling si the major thing that would have changed between QB’s as opposed to the actual functionality of the offense. With Vick, With Kolb, With McNabb it was always a west coast based timing offense with vertical plays in there.
You are going to call more boots and rollouts with Vick to keep the defense host. You are probably going to call a few more screens and playaciton apsses with Kolb in there. But that basis of the offense is not going to change.
Favre to Rodgers happened in one offseason.
Basically as soon as Favre retired, the Packers implemented the changes to accomodate Rodgers strengths and move away from Favres. So McCarthy did it in a matter on a few weeks. Its one of the reasons why in late spring when Favre wanted back, the Packers said we have moved on. Or in McCarthy’s famous words, “the train has left the station.”
McCarthy knew from his time w/ both which routes needed to be changed. Just like I’m sure Reid knew from having Kolb for a couple years and Vick for over a year knew which plays needed to be changed. The WCO is still the Packers offense, its just been adjusted to fit each QB’s strengths. I’m sure Reid still considers the VIck offense to be WCO based.
Favre signiture play was the quick slant, Rodgers rarely makes that throw, and his slants are alway about 15 yds downfield. He throws more crossing routes and square outs that Favre didn’t throw very often. Rodgers also is a better more accurate deep ball thrower than Favre, so McCarthy implemented a reciever going deep on just about every play. That also played a part in the 50+ sacks Rodgers took as a 1st year starter. The OL rarely had to block for more than 2 sec w/ Favre, w/ Rodgers its pushing 3 sec or more, cuz Rodgers routes take longer to develop.
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Stafford broke that record against Detroit
He had 422 yards, Leinart had 405 in the Vikings game.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Getting to the playoffs is a Team Acheivement. Putting up good and efficient numbers as a QB is a product directly of your ability, and indirectly of the abilities of your OL and Recieving corps.
I would take a guy who have been putting up great efficiency number for the past 3 seasons and never made the playoffs over a guy who is putting up average efficiency numbers, but has started a playoff game in each of the last three seasons.
No I can't
But I have not at any stage claimed that the 2012 Orton will be better than the 2011 Kolb.
However it is my opinion that based on their current level of performance and development that in the 2011 season a player with experience (Such as Orton) would be a better option for this team than a player who has had few starts and struggled horribly in some while dominating others (Such as Kolb)
Your fascination w/ Orton isn't based on his body of work.
He hasn’t led a team to a sucessful season YET! At least Kolb has much more potential. And if he doesnt work out there are ways to structure the trade and his contract as to not cripple the Cards beyond the ’11 season.
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And according to reports
Orton will cost less then Kolb. If we could get Kolb for what Orton will probably go for, this whole discussion might be moot.
A 1st round pick or two second round picks is too much for an unproven QB, especially if you tack on a pricey contract on top of the loss of picks.
Its the going rate...
Based on the Schaub trade and there numbers are very similar before being traded. 2 2nds and you might be able to make one a condtional pick based on his performance or the Cards record w/ Kolb as the starter.
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A conditional pick would be a good idea
Let’s hope that IF we do trade for Kolb, we structure the deal to cover our arses.
Both the trade and Contract.
Can be structured to decrease the Cards risk. Its not that hard to do really, and both Philly in the trade and Kolb should be ammenable to such a deal given Kolbs lack of experience and his modest numbers to date.
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Yes, I want Kyle Orton too
I honestly think he would own with Fitz. But I don’t know if it’s going to happen.
I think we should push for him, though.
Look at Ortons Receving corps over the last 3 seasons;
Brandon Lloyd, Jabar Gaffney, Eddie Royal
Brandon Marshall, Eddie Royal, Jabar Gaffney
Brandon Lloyd, Devin Hester, Rashied Davis.
One receiver worth a damn in three seasons that Kolb has thrown to and Marshall had 100+ catches and 10 TD’s in 09.
Touchdowns
Orton threw for twice as many as the Cardinals offense scored last season. With a no name receiver corp. Orton in AZ would be a good thing.
Lloyd was All Pro last year.
He finally came into his own as a WR. So its not like he didn’t have a threat at WR. He also had Marshall the year before and nobody questions hisa ability.
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There were alot of Bears fans who wanted Orton to be the QB
Over Grossman… Apparently the GM and HC thought Grossman gave them the better oppotunity to win the SB. Thats all that matters! You don’t play the lesser QB when the SB is at stake!
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ran into this
According to ESPN’s Stats & Info, Kevin Kolb has thrown a “near-interception” every 3.9 pass attempts on third down.
Kolb has 75 career pass attempts on third down — a small sample size — and 19 have been defensed. His 96.0 passer rating against base defenses drops to 66.4 when he sees five or more defensive backs.
No thank you, no thank you, no thank you.
I would truly rather have Rex Grossman. At least then I can make Cumslinger jokes (“F**k it, I’m going deep”).
Is a "near interception"
Kinda like a faux pass? It could mean he’s trying to fit the throw into a small window. Which is something the good QB’s tend to do regularly! Sometimes they might even get defensed…
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or
it means he’s throwing to guy’s that are covered or aren’t open.
or
That he’s throwing them open… Kinda like a back shoulder throw. Putting the ball where only his reciever can get it. Just sayin…
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you know what
why don’t you ask ESPN Stats and Information? I’ve provided the stats, you’ve provided your opinion.
It seems very, very straighforward to me.
If it's uncatchable by the defender
how is that a near interception? You said “putting the ball where only his receiver can get it”. That pass results in a reception or an incompletion. If you want a definition of near interception ask ESPN since that is the origin of the stat being referenced.
Defenses.
Every good QB puts up big numbers against average or worse defenses. But bad QB’s usually are lucky to have good games against them. How many times do you see inexperienced QB’s have great days against very good or Great defenses? It just doesn’t happen… Thats why those defenses are great, they shut everyone, even great QB’s down. For Kolb to put up good numbers against good defenses he needs experience! The best defenses put the clamps on every QB not named Brady, Manning or Rodgers. Kolb has to play and gain experience and when he does, he might be a QB who can have good games even against the best defenses in the NFL.
Another poor argument…
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Let's see here:
I like Kevin Kolb. I have since early last season. In fact, I wanted us to trade for him before last season’s trade deadline. In the few starts he’s had (7), he’s had three 100 yard passing games, and has been the NFC Offensive Player of the Week twice. That’s pretty good.
But, my first choice would be Carson Palmer, because he would be epic when paired up with Fitz, and he would make us a lock for the Playoffs (Or at least close to it). But I doubt he’s going to happen. After him, it’s either Kyle Orton or Kevin Kolb.
But the thing I don’t want is for us to trade a player like DRC for Kevin Kolb. We’d be getting ripped off. And even mentioning Patrick Peterson in all this is plain dumb. At the most, I’d be willing to give up two 2nd Round picks, or maybe a 2nd Round pick and a conditional pick, but that’s it.
But we can all agree that our dream is to see Peyton Manning in a Cardinals uniform.
Both these points have been addressed before but for convenience;
1 – He has also had 3 games with a QBR of under 75. He is high or low, QB is probably the position in the NFL consistentcy is valued the most. Rex Grossman had 7 games over over 100 QBR in 2006, by mid 2007 he was on the bench. And I think all of us saw his meltdown vs us in 2006 despite still winning the game.
2 – Rex Grossman was an NFC player of the month, Joey Harrington was an NFC player of the week. These awards mean next to nothing to me.
We are talking such a small sample size, that it is best not to use outliers (I.e the bad and good) to stand upon. Combine them and move on. And use the Good in relation to the bad. Looking specifically at QBR, Kolb has been great as much as he has been downright awful. Do we want a QB who goes between 85 and 105 in terms of QB rating on a consistent basis or one who fluctuates between 120 and 55 week to week.
To me at least the answer is simple.
Someone said it above
And it was a good point: We don’t have enough to choose from to call Kevin Kolb a bust or not. He was good last season, and would’ve been the full-time starter had he not gotten injured, and had Michael Vick not been, well, Michael Vick.
Noone has said bust
I just don’t see any great redeeming qualities in him. I see a league average QB who will complete 60-62% of his passes, throw 18-22 TD’s with 16-20 INT’s and 5-6 fumbles a season.
I don’t see the upside everyone talks about, I don’t see the “future franchise QB” that is thrown around.
Kolb would have been the starter, and I would bank on the Eagles missing the playoffs.
Repoted today...
Kolb can be had for a 1st or 2 2nds… Thats it… No other players or picks!
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I'd prefer two 2nds.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
by JoeCB1991 on May 27, 2011 7:17 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Just throwing this name out there
What about Matt Flynn? He was fantastic against the Patriots last season, and we could get him cheap. I definitely want him competing for a spot in Training Camp.
Flynn is even more of a question mark
But he does have the pedigree of coming from the Mike McCarthy school of QB’s. I would not trade much for him, and I bet ther Packers would be looking to recoup at least a 2nd round pick for him.
Always keep a quality backup
A backup QB is very valuable these days.
And if I had to trade a 3rd for anyone, Kyle Orton would be the guy.
I haven't seen enough out of him
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Flynn leaves next year for a chance to start!
Staying in GB doen’t afford him that opportunity!
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Flynn
Might be able to get him for a 2nd. Not a 3rd… Packers plan on keeping him for another year as Rodgers backup for another SB run. So he is kinda available if you wanna pony up a 2nd. Otherwise when he becomes a FA you might be able to outbid other teams for his services.
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I'm alright
with anyone but people by the name of Kolb or Young
At this point...
I wouldn’t mind shipping off Kerry Rhodes and and 3rd, for Demeco Ryans and Matt Leinart if it meants not hearing Kevin Kolb in Cardinals red for a week
by Cardsfan928 on May 26, 2011 10:51 PM MDT up reply actions
Why would you want to get rid of Rhodes?
He’s a good player in a great contract situation for the Cardinals. Trading him doesn’t make sense at this time.
I wouldn't
but if it meant not getting Kevin Kolb I’m all for it. Besides, hasn’t Kolb himself mention he wants to be paid like a starter? Smart, let’s trade a first round pick for a guy that might be an above average passer and then he’ll leave and sign somewhere else in the near future.
You keep saying that.
But the Biggest risk/reward is John Skelton. He a bigger risk and better reward.
by McCollum, Travis on May 27, 2011 9:50 PM MDT up reply actions
Well right now he is less risk than Kolb, becasue with Skelton we risk going 3-13, with Kolb we trade a 1st round pick, or two 2nd round picks and still risk going 3-13
True
But I think he a bigger risk because no one think we should start him. Everyone one expect Kolb to start here. What you say is True in every way. I Still think John the bigger reward.
by McCollum, Travis on May 27, 2011 11:30 PM MDT up reply actions
Kolb would make you an 8-8 team this year!
And he is only going to get better! Your love affair w/ Skelton makes no sense… He is NOT a better QB than Kolb! Nor is he going to be better!
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You're opinions on Kolb are subjective
We could go 3-13 with Kolb the way this lockout is going. Still got to get him to learn the offense before he can be successful. The guy has proven 2 things in his very short career… Flashes of potential and inability to stay healthy. There are no guarantees in trading for him. Are we getting a true franchise QB or another Rob Johnson? Draft picks are more valuable than gold in this league and I don’t see the Cardinals wasting a 1st round pick on him when all we need is a savvy veteran that can control the clock and limit turnovers
by cardinalbrown on May 28, 2011 10:39 PM MDT up reply actions
*your
This lockout needs to be over with so we can stop assuming what’s going to happen and start predicting the final 53
by cardinalbrown on May 28, 2011 10:58 PM MDT up reply actions
That's exactly my point.. this trench fight of words is as useless as a toilet without an asshole ( NFL ) or a dick ( NFLPA wait no a decertified legal entity that is money hungry )
by az78true on May 29, 2011 2:51 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Did I sniff out a Team America reference?
and fans are the pussy that get f*cked and sh*t on
by cardinalbrown on May 29, 2011 10:04 AM MDT up reply actions
Lockout
Certainly throws a monkey wrench in the works… He needs experience for those flashes of brilliance to become consistent stars of brilliance. Every young QB w/ limited playing time has some great games and some poor games. Kolb needs to play regularly to become a QB who can have consistently great/good games. When he gets that he will be a franchise QB for whatever team hes’ on.
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So are you seriously saying that Skelton is a better QB prospect than Kolb?
Get freakin real! There isn’t a scout in the NFL that would tell you that!
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they are just homers...
he hasnt shown anything!
Skelton Scouting Report, Homer Edition:
The main knock I found on him coming out of college and at the combine was his accuracy. After completing 50% of his passes this year, I’d say that’s spot on, even if we give him credit for some drops (Hightower, despite all his receptions, is one of the worst RBs in the league for dropping passes, by the way).
From watching him play, he needs seasoning. He didn’t read coverages quickly or consistently (contributing to his poor compl%). He is great at avoiding pressure, both in the pocket and when rolling out, but needs more pocket awareness. Learning NFL defenses and protection schemes will help him feel out the pass-rush better. He has one of the biggest arms in the game and can deliver his throws with touch. He is poised and his low turnover count speaks towards his decision-making. Remember, our quarterbacks were under a lot of pressure last year (DA was pressured 36% of his drop-backs). We weren’t particularly good in protection, and we never stuck with the run long enough to take any pressure off, but Skelton was the only one who didn’t visibly crack under duress.
Skelton was better than I expected him to be, and more of a complete player than we had any business finding in the 5th round. His biggest hurdles are consistency and learning the NFL game, both challenges of experience and motivation rather than talent or ability. He wasn’t ready to help an NFL team last year, and I don’t think it’s reasonable to think that he will be this year, either, but he looks like a player who can be exactly as good as he wants to be in time. He was available later on for the same reason most players of his status are: a lot of teams already had developmental QB’s, and a lot of the teams that needed a QB needed one they could use immediately rather than later.
I’m interested in other opinions, especially other opinions that weren’t comparing him to DA and Max Hall all year. What did you guys see?
i saw a guy
who is inaccurate, and has made one or 2 big plays. He started, what, like 5 games? 0 of them were good. I dont know why u guys think he has potential
Accuracy
Is THE most important tangible trait a QB needs. Arm strength is over-rated. QB’s that are accurate in college tend to be accurate in the NFL or less. Accuracy RARELY improves when throwing into smaller windows and a QB has to be able to throw to an open area where the player is running. They don’t have WR running free like they do in college.
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Forget, why do you
Keep leaving out the fact that John Skelton was NEVER supposed to play last season? He was literally thrown onto the field. And considering the fact that he’s practiced more with the Practice Squad than the actual team, he performed pretty decent.
I’m a Kevin Kolb fan, but even I’ll tell you that it’s completely unfair to shrug off John Skelton. He was never given a fair chance.
I'm not saying we should start him
What I’m saying is he shouldn’t just be shrugged off. For someone who wasn’t supposed to play a down, he played decent.
I don't shrug him off.
But he’s not a worthy candidate for starting QB in 2011. He is what he is – a project that needs developing.
What?
Are you seriously going to tell me that John Skelton will never amount to anything? After being thrown in and only having four starts? Whatever.
Were did I say that?
Seriously… Thats about the most ridiculous reponse ever. All it means is that every QB who fails and even those that succeed, can point to drops if they want to make excuses. Like it seems you guys are doing for Skelton… But that is not what I meant. I don’t think Skelton is blaming drops for his relative lack of success last year.
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Lack of success?
I’d say he was rather successful coming from a project that is a long ways from being starter material
by Cardsfan928 on May 28, 2011 11:54 PM MDT up reply actions
Really?
How is completing 47% of your throws anything close to being successful? It simply is NOT. Whether he “should” have been on the field or not is immateriial. He was not successful. He MIGHT be able to become a successful QB, but he wasn’t last year.
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Like I said
Considering he was a project QB from a small College that was thrown onto the field, he was successful.
Successful
In getting on the field. Not in QB rating or completion %… Wins over Denver (telling you something about Orton?) and a bad Dallas team w/o its QB but losing to Carolina?!! St L and SF.
Getting on the field doen’t make him successful.
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Again, like I said
Given his circumstances, he played decent. He didn’t fall apart, fumble the ball, throw an interception every other play, etc.
He wasn’t supposed to play, and yet he did, and when he did play, he wasn’t awful. He wasn’t a superstar, but he wasn’t anything near a bust.
Nobody is calling him a bust.
A success he isn’t YET. Can he become a successful NFL QB? Remains to be seen. Myguess is Orton at best… Yours is probably higher.
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Orton was playing with a rib injury in that game
I think he had it ever since the second KC game.
Doesn’t excuse how he played like crap when he came here, but he played well for most of last season.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Drops are the difference between a bad year, mediocre, above average and a great year in QB terms.
For the most part that is …. that should be obvious.
So the difference between..
Say Orton and Brady is that Ortons recievers drop more passes than Brady’s? Drops are an excuse!! Every QB suffers them… Hell Rodgers recievers dropped alot of passes last year! Jones had a ton of drops that were potential TD’s, Nelson had 3 drops in the SB alone, yet Rodgers and the Packers still won! Jennings had 2 drops on bombs behind the defense that were sure TD’s. Its a VERY poor excuse!!
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Super Bowl
Packers had 6 or 7 drops as a team in the SB. Rodgers still succeeded and the Packers still won. Rodgers could have been 31 of 39 and 400 yds if not for all the drops. But Rodgers and the Packers still won.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I read
a comment from a guy who obviously did not watch a game against Dallas on christmas, and has come to ROTB to be nothing but a troll
by Cardsfan928 on May 28, 2011 1:18 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
he made one play in that game...
get real!
by forget on May 28, 2011 1:29 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I like Skelton but you need to be realistic
more points were scored by our corners returning picks for td’s than Skelton TD’s.
Just because he has a different opinion doesn’t make him a troll. Stop getting so butt hurt
by CardsDefense on May 28, 2011 1:54 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Skelton has potential because he was born on St. Paddy's Day
We have the luck of the Irish on our side
by cardinalbrown on May 28, 2011 11:00 PM MDT up reply actions
We're homers
and your trolls…seriously what on earth has Kolb shown that Skelton hasn’t…at the very least Skelton has proven he is durable enough to play a quarter of a season. Even your beloved Rodgers has had injury issues
kolb's completion % is 10+% better than skelton's.
he threw more TD’s and for more yards. haha he showed that he can at least be a serviceable QB
It took him four years to accumulate those stats
Not very impressive
by Jesse Reynolds on May 28, 2011 5:15 PM MDT up reply actions
if u just look at his numbers last year
he started 5 games, his numbers are way better than skeltons
Yet one had spent four years in the system and had been groomed the entire offseason to be the starter for the entire season and the other wasa a 5th round rookie who was bought on as a developmental prospect.
who cares where he came from ?
he wasnt highly recruited, he went to a small school. He was a 5th round draft pick. He completed 47%of his passes last year. What in the world can u see in him? he made a few big plays, but he couldnt even put one good game together. You guys just see what you wanna see.
I saw dropped passes
Thrown away passes.
Not saying he is the next “it” but it wouldn’t be the first time teams passed up on a QB and he became good.
Also Skelton had a combined 11 drops and 3 thrown away passes. His accuracy isn’t that much of a concern if you had seen him play.
Definitely not a starter next year, not as far along as Kolb, but a very promising prospect.
by Jesse Reynolds on May 28, 2011 9:41 PM MDT up reply actions
because
your comparing Kolb and Skelton’s numbers, he’s laying some truths on you, Fact of the matter Skelton was rather impressive for just being tossed into the fire in a season where the team had already quit.
by Cardsfan928 on May 28, 2011 11:55 PM MDT up reply actions
i just dont believe that completing
47% of your passes is impressive. lol just my opinion. I wouldnt bet on him succeeding, but, hey, im probably wrong, right?
I do think if he's given the chance... Skelton can and will develop into a solid solid solid QB.
I’m not saying franchise QB but a solid starter.
how many 5th round draft picks have become starters?
that combined with his rookie year stats, make it highly unlikely that he will be an average starting QB
Tom Brady
was a 6th round pick.
Would be highly unlikely for a 5th rounder to succeed, but I think Skelton has all the makings of a good QB.
Look at Brady's numbers
Brady started 14 of 15 games his 2nd season. Completed 64% had a QBR of 86.5 w/ 18 TD’s and 12 INT’s. Won a SB to boot…
Is That something you think is remotely possible from Skelton? I don’t think he could do that in his 5th year much less 2nd.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Playing time!
He needs to have consistent playing time to become a consistently good/great QB. Every QB will struggle when you get very inconsistent playing time.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
and really
im not a troll, i just disagree with your opinion about john skelton
you
have disagreed with what everyone has said on this post with the exception of Strohman. Who is a Packers fan and trolling. Therefore, by the transitive property, you are a troll.
If you can’t see how you’re seen as a troll, maybe you should look back through at your comments and see whom you’ve agreed with.
but a troll is trying to start arguments
i do not. it doesnt matter if u disagree, its how u disagree.
by forget on May 29, 2011 1:59 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Homers
is right and I am a homer and know that Skelton is not even close to sniffing Kolbs jock right now and if he had all this upside why did we get him in the 5th round?? Skelton could develop into a decent QB but this is years and years away.
by Nick Thoreson on May 31, 2011 4:18 PM MDT up reply actions
The problem with that saying is that a lot of people here don't think the reward from Kolb is as great as the risk of giving up high draft picks for him
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Well then I guess your SOL
You NEED a QB and now! So you have to take some kinda risk don’t you?! If the GM and HC were planning ahead, they would have found the next franchise QB while they still had Warner, instead of waiting till he was gone and hoping one fell into their laps! At that point everyone I knew in Phx already admitted that Leinart wasn’t going to be the answer.
Thinking ahead, planning ahead is what got the Packers Rodgers, when everyone else passed on him.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
by Strohman on May 28, 2011 2:34 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't mind trading for Kolb
I’m not as high on him as some of the people here, but I think he would be a big upgrade over what we had last year.
What I’m saying is that a lot of people here don’t believe that Kolb is the right fit for this offense based on how he has played (such as the comment about him checking down more than Leinart), I think he can fit but a lot of others don’t. They have looked at the risk and the reward, and they do not think that the reward will be good enough to outweigh the risk.
One reason that people here like Palmer and Orton more than Kolb is because they have proven more, and even though they don’t have as much upside they have shown that they can play well in the NFL already in offensive systems that are more like what the Cardinals run than what the Eagles run.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Except that...
Palmer and Orton haven’t proven they can get you in the playoffs either. Thats what you want isn’t it? So your then trading for a QB that isn’t going to take you anywhere. Or Kolb who MIGHT… Which is worth the risk? the guy who can’t or the guy who might?
Palmer would be a better option than Orton. But he isn’t likely even available and I don’t think he’ll ever be the same QB since his knee injury.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I dont want Skelton to start but you keep saying risk/reward. Kolb is nothing but a backup and is not going to get better .Get over your self. You talk as Kolb is the 2nd coming of manning. He not going to make this team 8-8 he will win no more then 6 games. If Skelton starts I dont see him winning more then 4. But you Keep saying risk/reward and to me Skelton is the better reward if he turns out but as Khodder said Kolb is the bigger risk in some ways. Orton and Palmer are who I want. They have a better chance at making this team better and take them to the playoffs. Kolb to me has no chance of getting this team to the playoff.
by McCollum, Travis on May 28, 2011 10:37 AM MDT up reply actions
Kolb is nothing but a backup...
Thats YOUR opinion! Nothing more… Get over YOURself. I’ve never compared Kolb to anyone, except Rodgers and that wasn’t about skills or ability, just situations! I Think, as IMO, he can become a very good QB.
There is little reward in Orton or Palmer as I dont think they can take teams to the playoffs. One never could the other can’t since his injury. Skelton at his best is a backup and his stats bear that out. At least Kolb has 2 player of the week awards for passing for nearly 400 yds one week and 320 the next. While completing over 65% of his passes in those games.
If your not interested in making the playoffs you can have Orton or Palmer. If you want a CHANCE at being a playoff team the only QB that makes sense is Kolb, IMO.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
People think that because Vick took over it somehow makes Kolb less of a player
Michael Vick is a once in a lifetime player. In my opinion Kolb can be very good, but I still wouldn’t start him over Vick. Andy Reid is doing the right thing by Taking advantage of the gamble he took on Vick. He is also doing the right thing by trying to get some draft picks for Kolb instead of letting him walk next year and getting nothing. Kolb has the skills to be a starter and he should get his opportunity here in the desert.
by CardsDefense on May 28, 2011 1:59 PM MDT up reply actions
Agreed with the Michael Vick thing
You know why Michael Vick was the starter? Because he was the runner-up for the MVP award. Andy Reid repeatedly said throughout the year that he was in the best situation a HC should be in: He didn’t know which QB to start because both were good.
Kevin Kolb started the season fine, but was injured. Then, Michael Vick came in.
True however,
Vick came in and did play that well, shutting the door on Kolb in the process. Vick made McNabb superfluous, allowing the Eagles to ditch him. Reid knew he had a good thing with Vick. Turned out it was better than he thought maybe.
With how Vick was playing
Only people like Tom Brady or Peyton Manning would start over him last year
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
You compare Kolb to Rogers because he sat a few years so what. QB sit on the bench all the time and never turn out to be anything. Player of the week who cares about that to. DA has been player of the week before it means nothing. Kolb 391 yard game that he got player of the week for he threw 3 int. When he threw for 320 yards on the KC one of the worse pass defense that year. 6 other QB threw for 300 yards on them again not the big of a deal. Kolb will never be a top 15 QB in the NFL.
Right now Kolb in nothing and so is Skelton but at least with Skelton your not throwing away a 1st and 60 to 70 million dollars on him. If Skelton does not turn out you still have a first that you can get one of 4 great looking prospect in Andrew Luck, Nick Foles, Matt Barkley, and Landry Jones.
But again I dont want Skelton to start. Palmer and orton give this team the best chance at being anything next year.
by McCollum, Travis on May 28, 2011 3:36 PM MDT up reply actions
Yeah. You’re getting a young QB who has displayed he has what it takes to make it at the NFL level in games against the Saints, Chiefs, Falcons and 49ers. He has shown NFL ability in game situations, John Harbaugh said he was very hard to stop in practices and anyone who has worked with him has displayed some type of interest. Tom Heckert said he would’ve given up 2 firsts for Kevin Kolb had he been available. To put into perspective how good people think he is, Andy Reid, one of the best coaches in football traded away a guy coming off a probowl season to give Kolb the starting spot. Andy Reid is not an idiot, you don’t do that for a guy who doesn’t have NFL ability. Kolb has made plays that you’d be hard pressed to see other QBs make (Look up his TD pass to Celek in the 49ers game or his TD pass to Chad Hall in the Cowboys game) He is a strong QB who is tough to bring down and can shed would be sacks ala McNabb. He is mobile and can move in the pocket, roll out and buy time for his receivers to get open. He is accurate and puts his receivers in good position to make plays after the catch. He actually does have the ability to push the ball down the field. He is tough and does not get happy feet in the pocket. When you build a game plan around him and he starts, he usually does very well, problems arise when you toss him in mid game situations when the game plan is built around McNabb/Vick.
In 5 starts with starters around him that he finished he has 1528 yards, 9 TD passes, 6 INTs (2 of which came on last second Hail Marys), 64.7% of passes, 7.91 YPA and 1 rushing touchdown. If you extrapolate those numbers that would mean he would’ve had 4889 yards, 28.8 touchdown passes, 19.2 interceptions and 3.2 rushing touchdowns.
People underrate him because of the high interception total on his career, most of which came in spot duty early in his career and a start against Dallas where his LT was Austin Howard (who gave up 3 sacks to Ware) and his #1 receiver was Chad Hall.
by CardsDefense on May 28, 2011 4:41 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Great games.
Kolb has had a couple great games and some poor ones. But the great ones show he has the talent to play in the NFL. Maybe even become great, but he needs to play a full season and gain experience to become a consistent performer! I would take Kolb over Eli going forward, if Kolb gets a full season under his belt and the experience, he will be better than Eli, IMO!
Hoping for next year is foolhardy. Nothing is a guarentee. Locker looked like a sure thing last year till he played his last college season. Now he’s got more than his share of doubters. Same goes for the QB’s in next years draft. Including Luck…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Phoenix?
I thought you live in Scottsdale?
They run together...
I live on the border. But yeah my address is Scottsdale. WHat of it?
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Really
Scottsdale and Phoenix are next to each other, OMG….Nothing of it, but the fact that your from Scottsdale says it all.
by Cardsfan928 on May 28, 2011 11:56 PM MDT up reply actions
I've lived in a ton of states none of which was AZ but I can guarantee you I have never wavered in my love for the Cards!
Scottsdale or Phoenix … it doesn’t make a difference! He’s a Pack fan and we’re Cards fans. I hate this no cussing crap…. why?…. because that’s how I feel at times and I don’t like being told I can’t exercise one of my rights given by citizenship.
check out a song
by the Blowbots…called Scottsdale bars it will explain everything.
Amen to that!
Scottsdale is a very nice place to live (I live just north of Scottsdale) but damn old town filled with some pretentious pricks!
by Jesse Reynolds on May 29, 2011 8:25 PM MDT up reply actions
Kind of makes me glad I live amongst the Mormons in Mesa
Lot more peaceful. Most of them are nice people too.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
I've lived in Tempe, Phx, N. Phx and Paradise valley too...
Now i’m in Scottsdale. Its just a name, doesnt mean anything. They are all part of the Phoenix metro area!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Reeeeeaaaaaaaally?
Next your gonna say Chandler, Avondale, and Surprise all are too
Your the one that said, and I Quote...
" the fact that your from Scottsdale says it all."
I just pointed out that i’ve lived all over the valley and I’m NOT a “scottdale” kinda person. Not even close…
When your done trying to throw around insults maybe you could try having a meaningful conversation! Something you seem incapable of!!!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Maybe I should go to APC
and talk about the Cardinals any chance I get…O wait, I’m not an antagonist.
I thought Chandler
Was part of the Phoenix metro area.
Wikipedia: "…is a prominent suburb of the Phoenix, Arizona, Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA).
it is
i dont think Cardsfan928 is from AZ….lol
Being Sarcastic,
I live in Chandler, it’s just that Strohman is obviously all knowing and powerful
I wouldn't trade even Max Hall to get Leinart back.
Even if Leinart were the most skilled QB available you can’t ignore the team dynamics. No chance they bring back a QB they tossed out the door a season ago. If they did things would go horribly awry.
As a bit of a question to all
How would people feel if we picked up a QB in free agency who over the past two seasons had produced the following;
429/714, 60.01% completions, 4720 yards @ 6.61 YPA (236 yards per game) 32 TD’s 22 INT’s and a QBR of 81.80??
alex smith..
and yes i had to look that up lol
Risk/reward
So I read threw most of the post and I keep seeing people say you got to take risk to get reward. So then why not just risk it with Skelton. If he turns out good then great if he turns out bad we have not given up any picks and we can get one of 4 qb that I believe are better then Kolb in Andrew Luck, Nick Foles, Matt Barkley, Landry Jones.
by McCollum, Travis on May 26, 2011 11:44 PM MDT reply actions
its tough
because although kolb looked mediocre last season, skelton lookedd pretty horrible. Can whiz risk having another horrible season? he might lose his job.
sure he can
He could most likely have another 2 before he got fired. He is the first coach to take this team to a super bowl.
Skelton look bad for a few reason. His understanding of the play book. Above average in dropped passes. Not getting one first string rep till one week before the Denver game and he still only got 50% of them as Whiz made him compete with Bartel who got the other 50%. Sure we would have like to seen more but behind the worse OL in the NFL and little to no time with the starters he was set up to fail. His stats are not what makes me like him it that on the field it factor he showed why playing. Not many rookie QB have what he had and I have yet to see it from Kolb at a strong level. Again risk rewards. If he turns out to get better and plays good then good he he does not we still have a shot at a lot of good looking qb.
by McCollum, Travis on May 27, 2011 12:29 AM MDT up reply actions
Skelton is not someone they believe in.
He was picked to be a developmental QB. A 2 year project by Whisenhunt’s own admission – prior to Leinart ever leaving the team. An undrafted rookie free agent passed him on the depth chart. He played last season only because of how horrible Anderson and Hall were. Depending on Skelton as your plan for starting QB is paramount to chucking another season on purpose. The Cardinals organization see themselves as competitive in the division. They aren’t going to throw away a season to check out Skelton. They aren’t going to risk Fitz walking on them by doing nothing to attempt to improve that position.
their throwing away a season and draft picks for Kolb who has done nothing to make me believe he would get this team anymore then 6 wins. Again if we are going for risk/reward that every one keep saying then go with Skelton he a bigger risk and better reward.
by McCollum, Travis on May 27, 2011 5:13 PM MDT up reply actions
Kolb and Orton are considered the top two QB options available.
If you want one of them you are going to pay. That is the risk. No one outside of a few Cardinals fans think Skelton is the best option. By not making a trade or signing a free agent both Whisenhunt and Graves will be risking their jobs. They believe they can compete for the division now. Whisenhunt has never said anything to lead anyone on that Skelton is the guy who can do that for them. He has always tempered any praise for Skelton.
Furthermore, even if Skelton were tapped to be the starter who do you keep as the #2? Derek Anderson? Doubtful.
The UDFA also came from a bigger college program and he was ahead on the depth chart because he had a better handle of the offensive playbook
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Keep in mind
That John Skelton wasn’t even supposed to play last season. Coach Whiz made that very clear. He was literally thrown onto the field.
I think Whis made a mistake in that when Skelton was starting games he continued to give Ron Bartell a whole heap of reps with the first team.
Whis loves to promote competition, but that is what forced Leinart out, and when you have a young guy in there it is probably better to give him more reps rather than less reps, more practice reps can only help a young QB.
I think Whis is a smart football coach, but he seems set in his ways in terms of man management, different players need to be treated differently, and I am not sure Whis is 100% up with that yet.
+1
I agree that Whis is a smart guy but his treatment of QB’s is interesting. The whole Bartell things reminds me of DA and Leinart. Why split reps?
by Jesse Reynolds on May 27, 2011 6:28 PM MDT up reply actions
I attribute it to Whis treating the QB position like every other position on the roster
It seems weird because most teams pamper their guys.
the saying is...
If you don’t think you have a QB you dont (you have to know). And if you have 2 QB’s you don’t have one. QB is a position where competition isn’t a good thing cuz its tends to devide the locker room w/ some preferring one QB and others preferring the other one.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Yeah, I don't really know if it's a good thing or not
It seems like ‘09 was the only season we approached with a definitive starter since I’ve been following the team (@ 4 years). Actually, Whis seems to try to create more competition at QB than other positions on the roster. So far Warner’s been the only guy to respond well to the environment, I’d say.
Skelton vs Bartel
Well, they didn’t have a QB. Bartel was signed very late in the year after Hall was injured. The last quarter of the season was entirely about checking these guys out. Skelton was never expected to play, much less start.
Kind of like the Eagles
Who prefer Vick over Kolb, but for some reason Kolb supporters think he will be great when he is really just garbage
Strange that Larry Fitzgerald would choose Kevin Kolb over Orton and everyone else if he was garbage.
Hopefully the lockout ends soon so we can grant Larry’s wish and get Kolb here to lead us to the playoffs.
by CardsDefense on May 28, 2011 2:05 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't remember Larry saying Kolb is the only QB I want
Fact is he wants a veteran QB that can help us win now
by cardinalbrown on May 28, 2011 10:43 PM MDT up reply actions
Wasn't there that huge news report
That Fitz said he wanted Marc Bulger or Kevin Kolb? And then Kevin Kolb responded by saying that if there are talks to trade him, he wants the Cardinals to be involved.
Yes,
but I don’t want Kolb involved in our QB talks anymore, hah…
by Cardsfan928 on May 29, 2011 12:04 AM MDT up reply actions
Could not agree more...
The only “winner” out there is McNabb and he does not represent anything more then an opportunity to buy time. Bulger is the next best bet to buy a season or two because he is tough and extremely accurate. He might be a winner who never got the best shot at winning but the jury is out on that one… he took over for Warner when the Ram offensive line was like water and the great recievers on the back end of their careers.
Fixed that for you...
The only "winner" out there is was McNabb. He used to be a winner, tho he never really won anything. And Bulger used to be tough, but he’s gunshy now. Doesn’t have the guts to stand in and deliver anymore. Been beaten up too much…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Agreed
Both those players are past their primes. I still like Bulger, but after reading about his “desire” to play I have since changed my mind.
Um, how can I make this about the Packers… Oh yeah, the Pack would never be in this situation :P
by Jesse Reynolds on May 27, 2011 12:01 PM MDT up reply actions
McNabb
has played deeper in the post season than any other QB in the NFC, also McNabb is proof that Kolb will bust out here, outside of Garcia what other player from Reid’s system has been good outside of Reid’s system?
Except that he hasn't WON anything!
How many chances does the guy need? He was to 4 straight NFCCG and only won one of those and then didn’t get the real prize when he got there.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
i would rather go to 4 conference championship games
then none at all lol. It wasnt all mcnabb’s fault that they lost all of those games.
then none at all
Cant argue w/ that, just as you can’t argue that he never won what matters most. Even tho he was soo close soo many times.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
4 NFC championship games
Compared to the years of crap that the cardinals have achieved looks pretty good. Not a big McNabb fan but if the top options fall through I wouldn’t despair if he was our QB.
What i'm saying is
All QB’s look good in Andy Reid’s system, DA would make POTW a handful of times if he were the starter
All QB's look good in his system.
Some, if not most, would attribute that to Reid being among, if not the best, QB coaches in the NFL! Is it the system or the coaching they get to make them successful?
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
System
Look at what McNabb has done away from there. Look at what AJ Feeley did away from there.
Look how he revived the career of Jeff Garcia, got him paid by the Browns and then sucked.
Look at the way he has revived Mike Vick’s career.
Ever since Reid has been there QB’s have been good to great in Philly and then flopped elsewhere.
Agreed.
It’s all system, McNabb being the best example.
by Cardsfan928 on May 28, 2011 11:58 PM MDT up reply actions
that is a good point.
but McNabb and garcia went to some pretty bad situations, wouldnt u say?
Not really
Any free agent can arrive in a “bad” situation, a lot of teams are not as good as the ones they leave, but the reason they found themselves in the “bad” situation is because the team they landed at were looking to get better, and the track record is building on Reid’s system making QB’s appear better than they may really be. In some fairness though father time caught up with both Garcia and McNabb
have u seen the redskins? or Cleveland?
they stink, just saying. If u put peyton manning on cleveland he probably doesnt have a very good year
He's Peytong Manning
He’s the entire Colts Offense. He’s the reason the Colts are even a Playoff team.
yes
but if he was playing for the browns, they wouldnt be a playoff team. Im just trying to make a point about how bad the browns and skins are
Manning would probably get them at least 8 wins
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
I think they would be 4-12 without him
At best
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Just like how Warner covered up a lot of our problems
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Just like all good QB's do for their teams.
And something Orton is incapable of at this point. Maybe he’ll prove me wrong, but I doubt it…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
He isn't considered among the best QB coaches in the NFL
Just cuz of his system! He coaches his QB’s to be successful!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Bulger doesn't want to come here
After the beating he took in St. Louis, I’m not surprised that he’s fine with being a backup.
Donovan McNabb would still turn us into contenders. He had one of his best seasons (Passing-wise) last season. But he’s not going to come here, no matter what anyone says.
Never say never.
I have a hard time imagining McNabb ever plays for AZ but as a last ditch effort they might sign him. If a trade for Kolb or Orton doesn’t happen, for whatever reason, pickings could get slim. It’s not like everyone else is going to wait for the Cardinals to do their thing.
The might
But Darren Urban has repeatedly said that he can’t even imagine Donovan McNabb in a Cardinals jersey, and the Cardinals really haven’t shown any interest in him.
Consider
No Kolb, Orton, Palmer, Hasselbeck, Bulger. Granted that’s 5 strike outs but it’s not inconceivable. I just wouldn’t rule out them reconsidering McNabb at that point. Anderson has proven he can’t do it. Maybe they look to a younger back up from another team instead. Maybe they go Vince Young but he is as doubtful as McNabb, if not more so.
Okay guys, lets stop starting arguments about the Packers for a little while.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Yeah they were. I lived it...
But now we have football people making football decisions, not fans. WHich was pretty much the case back in the 70’s and 80’s when the Packers executive committee was making the decisions.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
cardinals were horrible for longer...
we should talk crap lol
Unless you're counting the post-Superbowl era
The Packers haven’t been close to as good as franchises like the Steelers.
Only the Niners...gulp
come close to the Steelers in that debate
Its counting Football history!
SB trophy named after who’s HC? What team plays on the most famous turf in NFL history? What team had the most NFL Championships?
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I'm talking about the Superbowl era
Yeah, it’s named after Vince Lombardi. That might have to do with the fact that he won the 1st Superbowl. He was also a good Coach. No denying that.
But the Steelers are the better modern-day franchise.
Don't get me wrong, though
The Packers are a good, great, awesome team right now. So lets end it at that. The Packers are good, the Cardinals need a QB.
Again...
Only the 49ers (gulp) are in the same class as the Pittsburgh Steelers, when talking about NFL franchise’s
by Cardsfan928 on May 28, 2011 11:59 PM MDT up reply actions
Last 20 years the Packer have 2 SB
And one of the best team winning % in the NFL. Pitts and NE are the only teams better, as far as SB, in the past 20 yrs. That kinda puts them near the top of the list of great team in modern day NFL. And right now we’re on the verge w/ a very young team, of having a run of success every bit as good as Pitt and NE in the past 10 yrs.
We have stability throughout the organization and one of the best GM’s in the game to continue to find great players. Next 5+ seasons the Packers could own the NFL!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Again...
Stability and potential are not results…The cream of the crop of NFL franchise’s are Pitt, SF, NE, and Dallas (crap)
Packers aren't?
The past 20 yrs or so they have one of, if not the best winning % off all teams in the NFL and they have 2 SB to go with that. I would say that puts them among the Top NFL franchises in recent history! Dallas hasn’t won a SB for like 20 yrs, how are they among the best, but not the Packers?! Same w/ SF, when was their last SB? Packers have 2 since their last one! Packers ARE among the best w/ Pitts, NE and Indy (maybe).
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
They may be up there
but they are not in elite company by any means.
Only team that might be ahead of them
Are Pitts and NE… Packer winning % in the past 20 yrs is right up there w/ the best, if not the best. They are only slightly behind in SB wins in the past 20 yrs! That at worst puts them at #3 in recent history. Ahead of Indy by virtue of more SB wins.
Face it the Packers ARE one of the very best organizations in recent NFL history. Even if it pains you to admit it… You can’t make an argument to dispute it…
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They definitely are
And are certainly an anomaly of a team too coming from such a small town compared to the other perennial teams. I have them ranked fourth. Pitt, 49’s (1st and 2nd in super bowl wins and I hate to say it, the Niners are 5-0 in the superbowl), Dallas, GB and NE. NE barely makes the list above the Giants.
by Jesse Reynolds on May 29, 2011 8:32 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm done talking about anything other than the Cardinals on here,
now go away if you wanna talk Packers..
so i guess they are the fifth best franchise
instead of a top 4 franchise. Haha still not bad. They are definitely the best run franchise though, they are in the smallest NFL city, yet they produce a consistent winner.
Green Bay
is behind San Francisco by miles in the franchise debate. and what’s with Indy, They are not even close to the top 5 discussion..
nope they arent.
GB is a great franchise, haha just face it.
How are they behind SF or Indy in ANY way?!
Your saying so does not make it so… Packers have won more game in the past 20 yrs and have more SB trophys in that time. When was the last time SF was relevant? SInce about 98 or 99…
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Overall
Packers have 13 NFL Championships to SF 5? As of ’08 SF winning % is below Packers! They have a slight lead in SB Wins, but not in SB appearances. If your talking OVERALL Packers are way ahead of SF!
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SF is 5-0 in the Superbowl.
Since the inception of the NFL the Steelers, the Niners and the Cowboys have been the cream of the crop with the Giants and the Packers just below them. IMO.
Rather be that than have the Cardinals ugly @ss history… :/
by Jesse Reynolds on May 29, 2011 8:34 PM MDT up reply actions
link
if you didn’t look before.
Packers have 13 NFL championships since the 20’s. Thats in about 90 yrs. Who has more NFL championships base on a per season basis?
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Winning %
The Pack is ahead of Pitt, the 9er’s and Giants, But behind Dallas in SB wins and winning %. So Pack behind Dallas since the SB era started. And probably Pitts based on 2 more SB wins, but Pack leads in winning %.
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I'm talking about
The post Superbowl-era. The Cardinals had two championships before the Superbowl-era.
Why I said.
Pack behind Dallas since the SB era started. And you can include Pitts. Overall, Packers can’t be touched.
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Organizational rankings...
Check it out… This is a yearly ranking which has been done for the past few years. Where do you think the Packers are? LOL
Cards are higher than expected only cuz he is “anticipating” Kolb becoming the QB. Take that away and make QB a “0” and they fall dramatically. Make it a “-4” like he suggests and they are tied w/ Det!
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Best organization
Is not equal to best franchise.
Steelers own that spot without a doubt.
by Jesse Reynolds on Jun 6, 2011 1:54 PM MDT up reply actions
Based on what?
Drafting? Packers are just as good as Steelers. Organization is Packers. Steelers are a first class franchise, so are the Packers. Curious what your basis of opinion are?
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Winning
In the modern era the Steelers own the most SB’s and have been one of the most consistent teams.
No doubt the Pack are up there too in that category and the could definitely overtake the Steelers too with the transition from a HoF QB to potential HoF QB.
by Jesse Reynolds on Jun 6, 2011 4:31 PM MDT up reply actions
Past 20 yrs
Have one of if not the best winning % in the NFL. Steelers have the advantage in SB’s. Beyond that I would like to see the actual listing of the most winning franchises since the SB or the past 20 yrs.
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If your talking overall
Then the Pack is ahead of NE… Pack has 4 SB wins in 5 games. NE is 3-3 in their appearances. Pack ahead in team winning % as of ’08. Only Pitts is ahead for sure just based on SB wins. But Pack has them on team winning %… This is all based on ’08 data
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Are you a Packers fan?
You called me a Kurt Warner homer, called Aaron Rodgers the greatest QB in the NFL, and have insulted the Cardinals at every moment you can get.
when have i insulted the cardinals???
we were 5-11 last year, we stunk. Sorry u guys were trying to say our guys were better than GB’s. Its just not true haha! I havent been disrespectful at all, just stating my opinions, and some facts
Very few facts
And mostly opinions, which is very welcome.
We did stink it up last season, but it really was mostly attributed to horrendous QB play and some bad coaching decisions.
It seems by nature some of us are optimists and some of us are pessimists.
by Jesse Reynolds on May 28, 2011 5:36 PM MDT up reply actions
u cant just say i have provided very few facts
and have it be true. ive pointed out Kolb’s numbers are better than skeltons, and about the same as schaub’s. Ive stated that rodgers is on pace to blow warner’s career out of the water. Haters gonna hate i guess.
btw excuses are for losers
the defense sucked too.
lol no!
i dont hate my team, i go to every game, i buy all the merch, im one of the biggest fans out there. But, i try to not let it cloud my judgement on players(like warner vs. rodgers) . Also my comments about Rodgers and Warner are not controversial, i said warner was great, but i think rodgers will be better.
Having lived thru the 70's and 80's Packers.
I agree wholeheartedly! Truer words were never spoken.
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hahaha so im a pessimist
because i said we were horrible last year, and we have been horrible for most of the past 60 years? lol its the truth. gotta be real about your team.
But if you think you're going to lose each game
Then it’s boring to watch, whereas if you’re optimistic, you enjoy the game a lot more, and you get to experience half of what sports is all about: Hope.
dude,
i was talking about cardinals history, not about next season. I believe, with kolb, we can make the playoffs this year. But look, we are not strong at 3/4 of the LB spots. Our line was below average last year. Even if we get Kolb, QB will still be a question mark. Our secondary should be pretty strong, and are DL is solid. WR’s good as always. I think our team has some good qualities, they play hard and fight(most of the time), they dont lay down for anyone. I think we can squeak out 8-9 wins. I just like being educated about my team, i dont like being an ignorant fan who thinks his team is always #1
Who here says we are #1?
And I wasn’t making a personal attack. I was simply stating that you have provided a few select stats to support your argument and in truth Kolbs stats are not impressive.
Never hated. Don’t take an argument personal bro.
And talking about haters gonna hate? That’s all you, every post, everyday. Mull on that.
by Jesse Reynolds on May 28, 2011 9:44 PM MDT up reply actions
sounds like another personal attack...
whenever someone disagrees with u, u guys call them “trolls” or pessimists. haha, most of u dont know anything, khodder pulls stats for everything, so he’s one of the only ones i really take seriously. lol. Sorry i like to be real about my team, i try not to be biased.
Have I ever called you a troll?
Have I ever said anything negative towards you? I implied you are pessimist but that’s not an insult, at least not in my books. My dad, my brother and one of my sisters are all pessimists. It’s just ones perspective.
I also supply tons of stats with my arguments. And I try my best to be objective.
Of course I am biased. Any sports fan is biased towards there team but I am not blind and I am not a homer.
I’m here to talk about Cardinals football, so I’m not going to talk about this anymore.
Cheers to your opinions, cheers to Cards, have a good Memorial weekend bro.
by Jesse Reynolds on May 28, 2011 11:15 PM MDT up reply actions
To me, being a pessimist is a bad thing, but whatever
im done, you have yourself a great holiday weekend too my man lol
Funny thing is
I haven’t said anything rude to you, or insulted you. I also never said the Cardinals were the #1 team in the NFL.
i was referring to u
thinking that warner is almost a god and adrian wilson is still one of the best defenders in the game. that and u guys trying to prove that our guys are better than green bay’s guys.
This is even funnier
I thought Warner was a God? Me thinking Kurt Warner was one of the best QB’s to ever play the game is a lot more reasonable thank you thinking Aaron Rodgers is the best QB in the NFL. I’ve repeatedly told you why I think he’s not, and you keep calling me a homer.
I’m done here.
Warner was ONE of the best in the play the game. Not in the top 10 of anybody, but Warner was great. Rodgers is ONE of the best in the NFL today. Anyone better also has been playing longer! Brees, Brady and Manning are all in their 30s. Rodgers is 27. Brady and Manning will be done in a few years and Rodgers has about 10 yrs of great play ahead of him.
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haha i didnt think my comments about warner and rodgers were that unreasonable
i said warner was great, but rodgers will probably be better
Nothing unreasonable...
Anyone who says otherwise if foolish or arguing for the sake of arguing. LOL
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Not according to this list.
http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2103_The_definitive_list:_Top_10_NFL_quarterbacks.html
This was presented in ‘08. So I’m not sure if his one SB appearance w/ the Cards is included… Your welcome to find a list that includes him in the Top 10 of All Time. I would be happy to read it and find if it changes my opinion. For the record I don’t totally agree on everything on that list, but its close and is an independent and unbiased look at them.
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lol he isnt top ten of all time
marino, elway, steve young, joe montana, aikman, peyton, tom brady, johnny unitas, brett favre, warren moon, terry bradshaw are all better. That isnt even counting the old, old school QB’s.
Did you read the aricle I linked?
curious what you think? Or anyone else for that matter.
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ya i missed some that were on there
there were a lot of old-school guys on it. It’s hard to compare them. I would’ve put the newer guys higher on the list, but i must admit that i dont know much about sammy baugh or otto graham. Also bart starr should not be #1 lol. I think Unitas should probably be #1, his numbers are ridiculous for his time period
Starr
That one gets the most attention. LOL The arguement for him is fairly compelling… But among Packer fans its a little more of Starr ahead of Favre right now. course Favres actions the past 3 years has something to do with it. I just missed Starr’s playing days, so I’m barely on his side based on what I’ve read on him and the Favre fiasco for the past 3 years. Ask me in 5 yrs and we’ll see where I stand. But while I loved Favre he was never my favorite player. That was Ahman Green!
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Terry Bradshaw?
I doubt you could even get Terry Bradshaw to agree with that one. He has openly admitted that the QB play of the modern game is way beyond anything he ever did back in his day.
he's on a lot of top 10 lists
his numbers are really good for his time period, and he won. I never saw him play, so i really dont know how good he was, but a lot of people have him ranked high
Nah,
Rodgers has maybe 5 at best unless Ted Thompson fixes that Oline that isn’t much better than ours.
You haven't been paying attention to the draft!
Our last 2 1st round picks was spent on OT to become Rodgers’ bookends for the next decade. And we already have a very good RG who is young and is in place for another 8+ yrs. At LG and C, there are 3 good young players on the roster being groomed to take over in the next year or 2. Looks like this soon:
LT Sherrod
LG Lang/Newhouse
C McDonald (or Wells if re-signed)
RG Sitton
RT Bulaga
I Consider the OL fixed!
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I hope so
Rodgers is a stud. I’d hate to see him get injured.
by Jesse Reynolds on Jun 6, 2011 1:55 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm a fan of football
In my mind its Manning, Brady, Rodgers. Soon it will just Rodgers at the top as Manning and Brady are on the decline.
As much as I don’t like the Pats I still like watching Brady play because he’s damn good. Same with Rodgers. My favorite game right now was Warner Vs Rodgers in the playoffs. It was an epic QB bout like Ali vs. Frazier in that 14 round fight.
by Jesse Reynolds on Jun 6, 2011 4:34 PM MDT up reply actions
Favorite game
One of my favorites too. I was at it… Funny thing was that game was decided by the Cards D coming up w/ 3 turnovers that won them the game and gave them the early lead. Warner vs Rodgers was a subplot in that game. But it was an epic battle between 2 great QB’s!
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Wish I had it on tape
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Tell that to Khodder!
He’s the one who throws stats at everyone and lives by them!
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Hey now!
He’s our resident John Hollinger!
by Jesse Reynolds on May 29, 2011 8:36 PM MDT up reply actions
haha he might be a genius
he’ll respond to a post right a way and include some stat that is definitely not readily accessible. i dont know where he gets them
whenever i disagree with any of u
i just show u a stat. thats it. lol whenever u guys disagree with me, or anyone else, u call me a hater or a troll…haters gonna hate
i don't see stats in alot of your posts
Comparing Skelton to Kolb’s stats is a waste a reading. Of course a 4yr vet is going to have a better feel for the game and better stats than a true rookies during an abysmal season. I don’t think anything believes Skelton is the guy next year. But maybe he is the future guy.
by cardinalbrown on May 28, 2011 10:50 PM MDT up reply actions
well i guess all my posts are not worth reading then.
thats basically what they are about. That and the comparison of schaub and kolb
I wouldn't
mind giving Skelton the reigns on the offense, he’s been at all of Larry’s Workouts, the kid needs reps. He is learning the playbook, but he has had a full year to get a grasp on things, we need better playcalling to deal his growing pains though, let’s not forget the playcalling was sub par to be polite about it last season also.
John Skelton should be considered a last-resort
I’m not insulting him, but he was drafted as a project, and he needs a year or more to develop fully. We need to aim at getting a veteran first.
If we get Kevin Kolb, it means the team thinks he’s the future.
If we get anyone else, then it means we want a stop-gap for John Skelton.
I do want to see him get some reps with the first team during training camp if the Lockout ends in time
Just to get a look at how much he has improved.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
No doubt
someone else would be nice, but not a the cost of draft picks, the way this staff drafts mid to late round picks could be devastating in the long run, let alone a 1st. If they do lean on Skelton from Week 1 start with a 70/30, run pass ratio and let him grow into things, he has a nice pocket presence and has shown some nice touch on a handufl of his throws
In the end
The thing I fear most is that we’ll waste Fitz’s prime years. Which is even more reason why QB should take up the top five places on our priority list.
And he probably still has 10 years left in him
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Except that..
If you don’t get Fitz a real QB, the Cards won’t have him for those 10 yrs. He’ll leave after next season if there isn’t a QB in place this season
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and the team won't risk that
Hence all the talk of being aggressive in free agency. They are not handing the reigns over to Skelton.
Then he better make the right choice or his job and Whis's should be toast!
IMO BOTH Graves and Whiz’s jobs are on the line w/ the decision they make on QB’s!
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Both Whis and Graves signed 4 year extensions prior to last season. Both Rod and Ken are vlose with Mike Bidwill.
1 – Mike likes these guys he is going to give them more than one/two bad seasons together.
2 – Do you really think they are going to pay two head coaches for two seasons becasue the only coach in the past three decades to win a playoff game for them. They are better, but still cheap and they are not going to pay two head coaches and two GM’s for two+ seasons.
I don’t see Whis or Graves gone anytime soon. How long did McGinnis get. Denny Green got three seasons. Whis is going to be given time to right his ship.
So they get 2 season more...
But if a QB isn’t in place at the end of this year they could easily lose Fitz and neither should be allowed to survive that PR disaster! Lets face it they need a Franchise QB very soon. If they do extemely poortly and lose Fitz who would survive that? IMO, that should be a death sentence, but given the Cards cheap side, they might get one more year. But w/ a rookie QB and No Fitz could they possibly be successful? I don’t think so, but thats just me…
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After watching game film of Kolb and Orton
I’ve gotta agree with Khodder. I don’t think Kolb is worth what Philly is asking for him, he’s worth AT BEST a 2nd round pick.
Comparing Kolb to Orton:
Kolb is very nervous in the pocket; he checks-down alot, throws off of his back foot even when he’s not being pressured (probably due to his nervousness), telegraphs his passes and has tunnel vision (resulting in too many INT’s). On the upside, he’s pretty accurate with his throws and has a decent arm. He’s also well-liked by his teammates and has good leadership qualities. I think Kolb = Leinart and will be a bust. If we trade for Kolb, we better sign Bulger or McNabb as our #2 QB too or we’ll be watching a repeat of last season.
Orton is a decent QB but lacks leadership qualities. He reads the defense well, doesn’t telegraph his passes and is composed in the pocket. He’s also pretty accurate with his throws and has a decent arm. His biggest problem is when his team is doing poorly, his lack of leadership abilities makes it harder for his teammates to rally around him. I think he’d do well on a well-balanced team and for what we could get for him, he’s our best bet.
lol how do u guys watch the games?
just wondering. btw i agree with your analysis of orton.
http://www.bleedinggreennation.com has a couple of Kolb’s games and utube has highlights of both Kolb and Orton. Some highlights at NFL.com also.
Couldn't create an account
They said new account creation is closed atm. :(
It works now, I just joined it.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Having a hard time figuring out how some of the stuff works though.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
The "ten yard tracker" thing is what is giving me problems
I was able to join the forum without any problems
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Those sound like things Kolb can improve upon
He’ll get more comfortable in the pocket with playing time. I don’t think that staring down receivers is something that’s hardwired into a QB’s brain necessarily, either.
I think about half of these 600 comments are arguing about the Packers
Lets just focus on Kolb and the other QBs please, we don’t need to debate about the Packers. Save this stuff for posts like the debate with the 49ers fans we had last year.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
And I know I already said this earlier
I’ve been trying to stay out of these (besides my Warner > Rodgers) comment, and I don’t like the Packers because of parts of my family being from Chicago so it is probably best for me to stay out of it too.
So everyone, just cool it down a little okay?
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Trying to
but the robotroll brings up the Packers any chance….
No I don't
I wonder if we are going to do one of those again this season.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Although this year
It will probably be about who will suck less instead of who will win the division…
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Suns/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
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