Who Are The Most Overrated And Underrated Arizona Cardinals Players?
by gypsy22 on Jan 14, 2012 11:39 AM MST
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Print(This is a great offseason post. Hopefully you all discuss it at length. Instead of continuing with the season grades for different positions today, this goes to the front page. It deserves some recs. --Jess)
I'm writing a guide for the upcoming season and I had a few questions about the Cardinals. I figured the best place to find these answers was from the fans themselves. Thanks in advance.
Most overrated player on the Cardinals?
Most underrated?
Rookie of the year for the Cardinals?
What do the Cardinals need to address in the 2012 draft?
What is your opinion on the Kevin Kolb trade?
Beanie Wells got a number one running back load for the first time in his career and broke 1,000 yards and double digit touchdowns, do you expect this trend to continue?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Revenge of the Birds' (ROTB) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of ROTB's editors.
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Hmm..
Most overrated: Seems to be Kevin Kolb, atm (not saying he won’t get better)
Most underrated: Anthony Sherman, FB (not everyone took notice, but this kid was a HUGE reason Beanie got to 1,000yds/10TD’s this year)
ROY: Patrick Peterson, KR/CB
2012 draft needs: OT, 34OLB, speedy #2 WR, OG, SS (to start grooming to be AW’s heir)
KK trade: It needed to be done a the time, ’cause nobody in the organization believed Skelton was ready, and they needed to give Fitz a reason to re-sign for the long haul. He has certainly been a disappointment thus far, and I think we might end up missing that 2nd round pick, but it was a necessary evil at the time.
Beanie: I think with Sherman leading the way, and a (hopefully) better QB under center, Beanie will continue to be a force. Just pray that his knees hold up next year (which I think they are more likely to, with Ryan Williams taking a little bit of the load)..
Faith Focus Finish
Good answers all around.
Hit the draft needs dead on in my opinion.
by hadrarius on Jan 15, 2012 4:32 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
We need more of these,
Over: Kolb,
Under: Toss up between Sherman or Carter, both seemed to have an “invisible impact” if you will.
Sam Acho, but Peterson was a monster on special teams, I guess it depends on how you look at it.
I think the Cardinals need to stick to the total BPA (even if they are at positions we are deep at) approach and focus on acquiring more draft stock.
I think in the era of the QB we certainly have something odd in Beanie, and not in a bad way. He is still injury prone, with great size and speed. He did great with the opportunities he got this year, and has a tendency to knock defenders on their a$$es
Formerly known as Cardsfan928, If you wanna grab a quick game of madden, my screenname is also my Xbox name.
Acho v. Peterson
On the one hand, Peterson made a lot of flashy plays for us, especially on special teams — hard to ignore that. Also hard to ignore how he seemed to improve, saving some of his best games for late in the season. On the other hand, I think Acho was more consistent. For the first time since I’ve been following the team, we have one bona fide starter at outside linebacker. That’s just so exciting to me, haha.
I see what you're saying
But not only did Peterson tie the record for most punt return TD’s (and set the record for most 80+ yard TD’s), but all of his punt return TD’s were either game changers or game winners. Acho had an amazing 2nd half, and I really wish he had the entire year, but I just think PTwice had more of an impact on our record..
Faith Focus Finish
Strong case for both guys
Tough to argue against PP21 because of his game changing plays, tough to argue against Acho because of his great play at a position of need. I’m very excited for these two guys going forward
Follow me on Twitter at @AlexDavidson68
Yes,
I guess if you speak from the way they helped the defense; the arrow would lean toward Acho, but if overall impact is what the question is, then that arrow is leaning toward Peterson.
Formerly known as Cardsfan928, If you wanna grab a quick game of madden, my screenname is also my Xbox name.
by INSOMAN1ATIC on Jan 14, 2012 2:26 PM MST up reply actions
If you factor in value for the draft number
Acho was hands down a great pick. PP had the overall greater impact on the year though.
by Birdman from Mesa on Jan 15, 2012 12:59 PM MST up reply actions
Kolb overrated?
Everyone’s talking about a competition for starting QB next year, trading him away for whatever we can get, or outright cutting him. That doesn’t sound like an overrated player to me.
I’ll go with Darryl Washington for most overrated. It’s not that he didn’t have a good year, it’s that he didn’t have as good a year as everyone seems to think.
Paris Lenon is probably the most underrated Cardinal. He has vastly exceeded expectations (people were mad when we signed him) and played pretty well as a starter, even getting voted to Captain this year, but we always try to think up ways to replace him.
I basically agree with b0rd3r’s assessment of our draft needs.
The Kolb trade is a frustrating one because we gave up a certain amount of value and still aren’t quite certain of what we got in return. It was a good move in principle but the team still needs a quarterback. We are in a better position than we were before the trade because the possibility exists that our QB of the Future is actually on the roster (whether it’s Kolb or Skelton), we just haven’t seen it yet.
Finally, if Ryan Williams is looking good in the preseason (which is questionable, given the severity of his injury), don’t draft Beanie too early in your fantasy league.
Well,
I’d say all the talk of cutting or trading confirms he isn’t half as good as advertised.
Formerly known as Cardsfan928, If you wanna grab a quick game of madden, my screenname is also my Xbox name.
by INSOMAN1ATIC on Jan 14, 2012 2:51 AM MST up reply actions
Absolutely
Maybe I’m thinking more of RotB ratings instead of national perception? He’s definitely not overrated around here, haha.
Gotta say, I think you are dead on with Lenon being underrated.
I think he’s been a terrific value for us.
by Birdman from Mesa on Jan 15, 2012 1:01 PM MST up reply actions
Agreed.
Lenon has earned his place as defensive captain. It’s funny that so many people are so quick to write off Stewart Bradley because he couldn’t beat out Lenon during his first year with the team.
Agreed
I think having Bradley learn the 3-4 behind Lenon is going to be a good thing in the long run. Bradley showed ability with the Eagles, I think that can translate here.
by Jesse Reynolds on Jan 15, 2012 5:07 PM MST up reply actions
Overrated: Tough choice, because i don’t want to bag on any of my guys. Hmm, Cardinals don’t get much coverage anyways, so those players who do get any media time, definitely deserve it. Honestly, i can’t think of anyone who i would consider ‘overrated’.
Underrated: Again, going by media coverage, and internet talk. I would say Daryl Washington. We here at ROTB, praise him to no end, but outside of here, definitely not recognized for the beast that he is.
ROTY: Hmm, PP21 is the easy choice, and he was my initial choice for ROTY, but the more i think about it the more i lean towards Sam Acho. PP21 had high expectations coming in, and while he performed very well, his coverage play IMO does not warrant ROTY. Acho is becoming one of my favourite Cardinals, and provided excellent play at a need position, exceeding the value of his 4th round status by far.
2012 Draft: Early rounds, Lineman and Linebackers. We need to invest some early picks on our Oline, and round out our LB group with 1 more pass rusher and/or an elite ILB to play beside D-Wash. Later rounds look for a burner at WR, and hopefully we bring in a #2 WR in FA to hold down the fort while our other WRs develop
Kolb: Expectation were high coming into the season. Obviously Kolb didn’t meet those expectations. That being said, Kolb still has time to make this trade worth it, as long as he can improve during the offseason and into next year. If he can lead us into the playoffs next year, I’m happy with this trade, because that would mean we’ve found our QB
Beanie: I expect him to play just as good, and still be the ‘starter’ at RB next year. Having Williams will help him, and our offense, greatly. While his TD stats may go down slightly, i expect the rushing numbers to still be close to 1000, if he is healthy, and having Williams shoiuld help keep him healthy
Follow me on Twitter at @AlexDavidson68
most underrated. John Skelton. yeah, he’s still green he still makes mistakes but he’d start in Denver. And I rarely hear anyone give the kid a word of thanks for giving us just about the only sparks of hope this season in terms of offensive production. maybe he’s not underrated he has room to improve and he’s shown he’s capable of doing so with time and tutelage. I think he’s a little unappreciated in that he stepped up anyway and when crap hit fan, he dug in and he helped to bring us some wins.Sure he’s no MVP and his improvement wasn’t as cataclysmic as the Ds but I still think he deserves a parade.
Idon’t like to talk about overrated. Kolb, if payscale is rating then yes. he’s never produced on that level even in a familiar system and multiple weapons to go to.
what do we need? more seasoned talent on the line and in the back field. Throwing the rookies to the worlves and playing sink or swim might yeild serviceable players for a while, but itd be nice to have a coulple experience heads out there to help them on and off the field. For god sake we need a #2 recvieving like a drunk needs the sauce. sure we can wait it out and thinks will get better. but its going to ger bad before it gets better and we’re gonna have the shakes
petersen done did good, but I don’t know, I think we need to give credit to all our rooks who ended up taking the field. hope springs etern… every so once in a while.
I talked already about Kolb, I like him if he can get in there and be the QB we need. we dont need much, fewer turnovers and a reason not to throw double and tripple coverage on fitz would be a good start, protect him a little bit and he could lob it blind and probably show an improvement over last year.
finally, Beanie done good, and on a bad leg. good mangood season, i hope to see it happen again. i think there’s a good chance even with two full backs and an anchored line.and more passing threat, beanie is going to throw up some bitchin numbers.
This is a good post
Most overrated: Kevin Kolb. I think he’ll get better, but he was given such high praise and it lead to expectations he couldn’t live up to.
Most underrated: The FB Anthony Sherman"Tank". Sherm was a big, big reason Beanie got to 1000 yards. Sherman also caught some critical 3rd down passes this year.
Rookie: I have to give it to PP. But there is definitely a case for Sam Acho. Even before he gave my niece a glove after the overtime win against the Rams. Having a legitimate pass rusher is exciting! Having him there is raising the play of O. Scho.
2012 draft: OT(2), 3-4 OLB, SS, WR, BPA.
Kevin Kolb trade: Necessary to keep Fitz. Now let’s see what he can do next year.
Wells: I think he’ll be a better back splitting caries with Williams. I like what Bradshaw and Jacobs have with the Giants. I think we could have one of those types of duos.
Section 103, Row 19
How about the biggest Bust of 2011? "KOLB"
A year later and we still dont know what we have at QB.
Rookie of the year: Sam Acho.
Why not PP.? Becouse, Punt returning was not why he was drafted so high. I love his return skills, but he has not become that #1 shut down corner we thought we were drafting at #5. Acho, on the other hand has stepped in and showed that he will be our starter next year.
Over-rated: PP as the best Corner to come out from D. Sanders to present.
Under-Rated: PP’s return skills. They said he had them, but no one said he would be compare-able to Devin Hester.
Take on Kolb trade: Same as Pre-Season. I thought we should not have traded DRC. I thought we gve up too much for him and I said this before, during and after the trade on this site and others. Now here we are a year later and we know little more about him, other than he gets scared, puts his head down and runs to quickly. Thus we goto the draft.
Draft: If we want the Kolb trade to work, than addressing the OL should be the most important thing this year. Not just one, but as many as possible. If we cant get better pass protection while keeping the ability to blast open holes for Wells, we wont get any better.
Draft plan “B”: If Kolb is not the man, we need a QB, because Skelton sure is not. If Kolb is not the man we are set back a few years and need to address it sooner rather than later.
what we really gave up for kolb and thankfuly got off our hands
DRC was trash, and if you don’t believe me go look at last years numbers man only cared about the INT and got burned trying to make them all the time and had next to none last year. The man could never make a tackle either. Every time I turned around he was hurt in Philly as well so glad we got rid of em for a chance qb, the only thing that stings so far on the Kolb trade was that 2nd rounder.
DRC was not trash,
he would have made his fair share of the turnovers that seemed to elude the defense this season.
Formerly known as Cardsfan928, If you wanna grab a quick game of madden, my screenname is also my Xbox name.
by INSOMAN1ATIC on Jan 14, 2012 2:30 PM MST up reply actions
Overrated: I don’t think you can call Kolb overrated at this point. We paid him a lot of money because we were desperate for a quarterback at the time. It was evident all year that Kolb wasn’t comfortable in our offense and he’s clearly more well suited towards a west coast style. As far as other players are concerned, the Cardinals don’t really get national coverage so there isn’t anybody that is truly overrated in Arizona.
Underrated: Although his play was hills and valleys for basically the whole year, Skelton has to be one of the most underrated on the Cardinals, along with Lyle Sendlein. Skelton stepped in when the Cardinals were down and out and provided a spark when there was no hope. Unlike Kolb, Skelton could actually find Fitz this year.
The ROTY goes to PP in my book as well, but just because of his efforts on punt returns. Although he did show a little bright spots at CB, it was frustrating for most of the year to watch him in coverage, he seemed lost most of the time.
As far as the draft goes, we have to focus on two positions mainly, OT and WR. Roberts and Doucet will never be more than third on the WR depth chart and we can’t expect them to play opposite of Fitz, the talent just isn’t there. As far as OT, Brown is obviously a bust and we need to move on, either draft a stud, or try and pick one up this offseason. More time for Skelton or Kolb just means that they will be more comfortable in the passing game which we need.
If Beanie can stay healthy, and if the Cards can get a less predictable offensive coordinator, I believe he can continue the trend. Don’t forget about Ryan Williams though, he has the potential to step up and deliver next year if he’s healthy to provide the Cardinals a tough two headed rushing attack.
Hmm
Overrated: I would say Kolb here but I really didn’t expect him to do THAT well this season. But I really can’t think of anyone else that would fall under this category and nobody talks about the Cardinals so nobody is really viewed higher than they should be. But for discussion purposes I will say him.
Underrated: I am going with Paris Lenon. He was solid for us all season long once again and people are down on him for his age but he plays well enough to start for this defense and was the captain so he did a good job for us this year.
ROTY: Has to be PP. He ties the record for most PR in a season HIS ROOKIE SEASON!!!! He struggled early on with his coverage ability (he played all season long on the #1….) and improved in the second half of the season. The stats show he struggled but much of that is skewed from our terrible early season defense.
Draft: BPA but priority towards OT and another pass rusher… Also wouldn’t mind a SS to sit behind Adubs when he breaks down.
Kolb: Didn’t like what we gave up for him but I think it was pretty paramount we did something respectable to keep Fitz within the Cardinals organization. I never wanted to trade for Kolb but I think it was a necessary evil.
Beanie: I do expect this trend to continue. He showed me he can play through pain and usually play pretty well. With a healthy Ryan Williams, Beanie can only improve with more health due to less snaps (hopefully).
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
Here's my take...
Overrated: Levi Brown. For what he gets paid??? Where do I start? False Starts, Holds, his uncanny knack to direct the DE to the QB… Seems like a “no brainer” to me!
Underrated: John Skelton. It make take another year, but I think he could be the franchise’s next Jim Hart or Neil Lomax. Both of those QBs had their good and bad, but they were good leaders and made their teams better. The only difference now, is that the Cards have a better D than either of those other QBs had.
ROTY: I like Sam Acho. PP had a few good returns, but Acho was more consistent. PP has to move a couple of yards closer to the Line of Scrimmage and use his speed to recover.
Draft: Well, since we only have one pick in the first two Rounds, I’d go LT. If Levi Brown is willing to take a pay cut and move to Guard, keep him. Otherwise, it’s time to cut bait.
Kolb: I wanted Kyle Orton and wasn’t too high on Kevin Kolb, back this past off-season. When you factor in that the Cards now don’t have a 2nd Round pick or DRC on the roster, I’d say a big whiff on that trade. Essentially, the Cards gave up two starters (DRC and the 2012 2nd Rounder) for Kolb. I know, “In Whiz We Trust”, so if he thinks he’s not the guy and he cuts or trades him, I’d be fine with that. If Whiz keeps him, one more year and only one more year!
Beanie: A healthy Ryan Williams will take some of the load off of Wells. A good running game will only take the pressure off of whoever plays QB in 2012. I’m pulling for Skelton, but I’d be happy with Kolb if he can toughen up and recover from his Turf Toe and concussions. I guess I don’t like “soft” players…
I was going to say Levi Brown too
Not b/c anyone actually thinks that he’s a good starter but because somebody actually thinks he’s worthy of being a starter. He’s not thought of as good but he terrible enough that even our piss poor opinion of him is overrated.
by Steamin' Beamin' on Jan 18, 2012 10:18 AM MST up reply actions
Overrated: beanie wells
Underrated: Clark haggans
by forget on Jan 14, 2012 4:34 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Old Man Haggans is underrated?
My goodness are you blind man? How many TE’s did Haggans leave open all season long, whiffed sacks, or general inability to generate any pass rush.
Formerly known as Cardsfan928, If you wanna grab a quick game of madden, my screenname is also my Xbox name.
by INSOMAN1ATIC on Jan 14, 2012 8:19 PM MST up reply actions
He ain't flashy!
But he gets the job done! He’s solid, like a rock
Also, of he ‘whiffed’ on sacks, then he was generating a pass rush lol. Btw u r saying that based off of one play
Idk what mistakes in pass coverage you are referring to… He doesn’t spend a lot of time back there.
I don’t think there were a lot of underrated players on this team, which is why I went with haggans. Haggans doesn’t get the respect he deserves.
Hmmm while I was writing this I thought of another underrated guy…Levi brown! Haha only because people talk so much shit about him lol. He isn’t that bad!
by forget on Jan 15, 2012 2:02 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
Heath Miller being left wide open,
is the one that glares the most.
Formerly known as Cardsfan928, If you wanna grab a quick game of madden, my screenname is also my Xbox name.
by INSOMAN1ATIC on Jan 15, 2012 8:28 AM MST up reply actions
Haha that wasn't his fault
I remember that play. The safety was supposed to rotate over.
by forget on Jan 15, 2012 11:24 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
You should have just gone with Paris Lenon instead
He was more solid than Haggans IMO
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
He's like a rock.....
In the sense that he can’t really move anymore? Because if that’s what you’re saying then I totally agree.
by Steamin' Beamin' on Jan 18, 2012 10:18 AM MST up reply actions
Haggans may be underrated
but that doesn’t make him good. We need much more out of a pure pass rushing position than Haggans gives us
Follow me on Twitter at @AlexDavidson68
My view and opinion
Most overrated player on the Cardinals Per fans it would have to be Skelton. Everyone keeps talking the guy up. Even going as far as to comparing his play to that of Tim Tebow. Well, Tebows not that good either. Not to say he can’t be good sometime in the future.
Most underrated Kolb or Lenon. Lenon’s impact has been great and he’s performed better than anyone expected. Kolb because we don’t know what he can do yet and to count him out is ridiculous. Plus, if Fitz talked positively about his play ability when trading, it must say something about him. Especially since Fitz knows a thing or two about good QB’s (Kurt Warner)R
ROY I’d have to say it’d either be Peterson or Carter. Peterson because of his potential and what he’s shown in just one season without a whole lot preseason. And Carter for coming and being an impact player based on his draft position.
2012 draft I say we need to go LT in this draft as well as a good #2 WR or anything O-Line. We need to draft heavy on O-LIne
Kolb trade I still support and don’t think enought time has been given to Kolb to develop and mold to our offense. So to say he’s a bust or not is too early. My vote is out until we see this next season. If he doesn’ t come through then it was a bad move. But I still think it was a good trade. Just have to wait and see and I still support that we traded for him.
Beanie I think he’ll do even better this next year with the support of Williams. I think having the two on the field will only copliment each other and help keep Beanie from getting so banged up. He won’t get as many carries, but I can see him hitting 1,000 again due to it being Shermans second season and hopefully an improved O-line.
Sorry folks, park's closed. Moose out front shoulda told ya.
Good point about Carter!
It’s sad that a First Rounder like Dan Williams was supplanted by David Carter, even if it was by injury. If Dan Williams ever wants to play another down, he’d better hit the weights and harden up that sloppy body of his.
Seriously
You’re right as well. Thats what my friends and I have talked about with Williams. If he isn’t going to put in the work, bring in Carter who will be more appreciative and has something to prove due to his draft position. Even though I like DW, he’s proven that he feels like he’s owed the job by how he’s shown up out of shape.
Sorry folks, park's closed. Moose out front shoulda told ya.
At what point was Williams supplanted by Carter?
When Williams was put on IR Nick Eason took over as the starter. Carter was still only a rotational player. He did play great. Well beyond the expectations of a 6th round pick.
Skelton
answered far more questions than your boy Kolb did this season.
Formerly known as Cardsfan928, If you wanna grab a quick game of madden, my screenname is also my Xbox name.
by INSOMAN1ATIC on Jan 14, 2012 8:21 PM MST up reply actions
Oh boy, here we go again....
Okay…. you just made one of the most valid points yet in your push for Skelton! So what questions did he answer exactly that “my boy” Kolb didn’t? I didn’t say he wouldn’t be good in the near future. But you make it sound as if he put up stellar numbers and if you your only argument is “he won games”…… Skelton isn’t the team he’s the QB! He didn’t win the games for us, our defense in all technicalities did. If he won the games for us…. he would have played all four quarters then!!!!
Dude I never dislike anyone, but I have to wonder if you purposely troll on here looking to spit, sputter and argue about Kolb with me and others?
Sorry folks, park's closed. Moose out front shoulda told ya.
I never thought of Kolb as being overrated by us this season.
Overrated: I still think he is a great player but overall it would probably be Dockett just because of all the attention he gets from the media, yet Campbell is actually playing better than him. Dockett is still very disruptive and he did his job on the defense quite well this year.
Underrated: Daryl Washington, for the reasons everyone else on here said.
RotY: Patrick Peterson for his dynamic PR skills and the progress he showed at Corner this year.
Kolb: I was against the trade at first and I wanted to go for Orton because the cost would be less and I thought Orton could learn the defense sooner. I threw my support behind Kolb as soon as he came here though, and although I didn’t think he would be great in his first year here he did struggle more than I thought he would. He wasn’t bad, but you would have expected him to do better. I do feel good about him going into this season though.
Beanie: I think that Beanie will split carries more with Williams next season, more like what we had with Hightower and Beanie in 09 with them getting a 60-40 split. Beanie will have a good year with Williams helping to keep him fresh, but his production will be down.
Arizona Cardinals/Chicago Bears fan
Phoenix Suns, Arizona Diamondbacks, Phoenix Coyotes, Arizona Rattlers fan
[I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Leading the NFL in swagtangibles
You took my comment down,
Why?
Formerly known as Cardsfan928, If you wanna grab a quick game of madden, my screenname is also my Xbox name.
by INSOMAN1ATIC on Jan 15, 2012 8:32 AM MST up reply actions
I'll do one better... and be a bigger person.
INSOMAN1ATIC… so as you can voice your disdain for Kolb and whatever…. I’ll completely leave you and any comment by you and yourself alone from here on out. It seems that for some reason there is animosity between the two of us because of opinions on Kolb/Skelton. Even though like I’ve said… I don’t dislike Skelton. So I guess we’ll just agree to disagree…..alright? Truce!
Sorry folks, park's closed. Moose out front shoulda told ya.
The only thing I would have done is send a warning if I thought it was something bad.
Arizona Cardinals/Chicago Bears fan
Phoenix Suns, Arizona Diamondbacks, Phoenix Coyotes, Arizona Rattlers fan
[I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Leading the NFL in swagtangibles
It was nothing bad,
it’s just the worst assistant coach on this site has it out for me.
Formerly known as Cardsfan928, If you wanna grab a quick game of madden, my screenname is also my Xbox name.
by INSOMAN1ATIC on Jan 15, 2012 4:32 PM MST up reply actions
and now he sent me a warning,
haha can someone say abuse of power? LoL
Formerly known as Cardsfan928, If you wanna grab a quick game of madden, my screenname is also my Xbox name.
by INSOMAN1ATIC on Jan 17, 2012 6:29 PM MST up reply actions
That was a decision made as a group of moderators.
Again…do not attack other members. It is unbecoming of sensible members of a community. We want you as part of it, too, but if you can’t abide by community guidelines, it will eventually get you removed. It’s not unreasonable.
Like the Cardinals? Revenge of the Birds is where to go.
Like Arizona Sports in general? SB Nation Arizona is where you'll get it all.
Follow me on Twitter! @senorjessroot
Man you stole my overrated
DD has been underwhelming for most of the past four seasons. He needs to go back to a 4-3 defense so he can be a difference maker again. In the meantime, I think CC has stepped up and become the best 3-4 DE in the NFL. That dude is a beast and still has room to improve. He’d actually be my underrated b/c he doesn’t get the national attention one of the best DE’s in football.
by Steamin' Beamin' on Jan 18, 2012 10:23 AM MST up reply actions
Overrated: Peterson. Read Sando’s blog why, he allowed a ton of completions. Underrated: Rhodes. I never thought I’d say this but his play at safety once he came back was solid ROTY: Peterson. He struggled at corner but won us three games because of his returns. 2012: BPA, BPA, and more BPA. I don’t want another Levi reach. Kolb: He will be solid next year, I’ll bet on it. Beanie: If Williams comes back 100% he will steal a lot of carries from Beanie. I think Beanies days are numbered. RBs have a short life in the NFL already, Beanie is injury prone so I doubt he lasts too much longer.
by Jesse Reynolds on Jan 15, 2012 12:20 AM MST reply actions
Most overrated player on the Cardinals:
John Skelton, we saw why against the Bengals
Most underrated:
LSH, the guys a game changer, we know him for his KR’s but we saw a lot of his play making abilities on Offense this year.
Rookie of the year for the Cardinals?
Patrick Peterson. He won games, and turned them in our favor. Sam Acho is a close second but he didn’t make the plays that turned the game around.
What do the Cardinals need to address in the 2012 draft?
BPA. Easy, with FA coming first this season I think the Cardinals will address most of their need there.
What is your opinion on the Kevin Kolb trade:
It’s inconclusive. He played 8 games and showed why we traded for him in the Dallas game.
Beanie Wells got a number one running back load for the first time in his career and broke 1,000 yards and double digit touchdowns, do you expect this trend to continue:
Definately. We have a top 5 running Offensive Line, we have a solid FB in Sherman. Wells will continue to get better.
Good call on LSH
He was money all year, and didn’t really get enough recognition
by forget on Jan 15, 2012 11:25 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
No kidding
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
Most Overrated Player: Kevin Kolb. dude sucked the entire year, and I’m very disappointed we gave up a pro bowl caliber CB and a 2nd round pick to get him. Really hope the trade rumors are true and ship this guy to Cleveland, because he sure as hell isn’t cutting it out here.
Most Underrated Player: John Skelton. Admist the Tim Tebow media coverage Skelton didn’t get the national recongition considering his 5-2 record (6-2, if you count the Niners win where he didn’t start). Even though his stats weren’t that good, he literally brought the Cardinals back from dead. My best guess is that he’ll continue to improve and probably beat out Kevin Kolb for the starting job.
ROY: Patrick Peterson. 4 PRTDs and almost breaking the seasonal record. He continue to get better. Good addition for the Cardinals.
What do the Cardinals need to address in 2012? SLB, CB, QB, T: Paris Lenon is 35 and age looks like its creeping up on him considering he missed alot of open field tackles. I think Cards needs to address this position going into next year. This team also needs another CB Jefferson was horrible for most of the season; I love to see Cleveland make a move for Kolb and trade of for their 1st pick, Claiboure and Dre Kirkpatrick are two prospects the Cardinals should be eyeing on. Cardinals could also get another QB such as Nick Foles or Brock Oswelier to compete for the Cardinals QB job.
Opinion on Kevin Kolb trade? Worst move in Cardinals history. Period.
Take on Beanie Wells: Dude was a beast this season, he needs to have limited carries though because he’s injury prone and he runs so hard. Hopefully next season Ryan Williams will have a couple of carries and take the load off Beanie.
Keep it real!!
Most Overrated – I have to agree with Forget. Beanie Wells is my choice. He gets hyped but his game is not close to complete. He is poor in pass protection, not an efficient receiver out of the backfield and has been consistantly limited by injuries. He still runs too upright too often and has displayed poor balance, slipping and falling often. He does not have great vision or cut back well. I do think he is a good running back, just not the elite running back that others envision.
I can’t go with Kolb as most overrated because opinion has always been split about him. His proponents last off season were hyping him as the next great thing but there have been and continue to be just as many denouncers.
Most Underrated – Seen a lot of good choices so far. I would throw in Early Doucet and Jeff King for consideration. Doucet put up good numbers for a #3 reciever even with a pair of quarterbacks that couldn’t throw for 60%. He was money on third down. Jeff King stands out primarily because he is the first decent tight end we’ve had for a while and was overshadowed by the signing of Todd Heap.
ROY – Patrick Peterson. Have to give props to Acho and Carter too. Losing Williams for the season before it even started was a big disappointment. Housler could have been better.
Draft needs – See b0rd3rline’s post.
Kolb trade – Has to be kept in perspective. The Cardinals had to make a move at quarterback. Kolb was probably the best available option. They were reportedly close to making a deal for Orton too. Kolb missed half the season with a foot injury, then a concussion. I wasn’t happy with what was given up for him but I’m withholding final judgement for the time being. Want to see how he does after a complete off season with the team.
Beanie Wells – No, I don’t expect the 1000 yard seasons to continue. Not that he is incapable of it, but I have little faith in his ability to hold up healthwise. With Ryan Williams coming back Wells could easily find himself relegated to #2 in short order. This season there was no viable tandem at running back. When Beanie was out it was a struggle to run. Next season we should see a better overall running game. How much the touches are split is the question.
One thing on Beanie
Did anyone actually expect him to be a threat out of the backfield? He had almost no history as a receiver out of the backfield. He’s a north south runner, not a “get him the ball in space” kind of guy. To hold that against him now isn’t fair.
by Steamin' Beamin' on Jan 18, 2012 10:25 AM MST up reply actions
To start the season,
How about 65% Wells, 35% Williams, with a couple touches for LSH thrown in at random. LSH should get many more opportunities as a reciever though. As the season progresses the staff can tweak this however they feel is best. And for the love of God, get LSH some screen passes!
I would say the biggest bust was our Offensive line. Kolb was hurt to much and its obvious some really hate the guy or have made up their minds with the little body of work, so no more debating that.
underated got to be sherman running always did better when he was in, now if he could give some of that to our line cool
rookie of year toss up peterson or acho both began to learn the postion at about the same time, saying peterson started to look like shut down corner at same time acho learned the system and got time in.
Kolb trade still like it we signed Marshall who sorry much better than DRC as he tackles and was our MVP in our defensive scheme.
draft we need stud ol for our running attack and a great middle linebacker to stuff the run
Beanie will do better with Ryan coming back to spell each other hopefully will stay healthier.
Draft needs
We have to improve the OL this year in the draft. It’s an absolutely crazy to think how little this team has invested in the OL since the drafting of Levi Brown in 2007. One fifth round pick and two seven round picks is the only attention the OL has garnered in four drafts despite the OL being one of the absolute worst units on this team.
In the same amount of time we’ve drafted 5 RBs, 5 DBs and 7 LBs. It’s time to show the OL some love and bring in some new blood.
by Steamin' Beamin' on Jan 18, 2012 10:36 AM MST reply actions
my take
Most overrated: PP. He has a lot of upside and will continue to improve- but his image as a pro-bowl player comes only from punt returns. He was HORRIBLE in the first half of the season as a DB, although he improved dramatically down the strech. I bet most of you would have thought I would say Kolb, but frankly, his stock has tanked this season, so it’s hard for him to be overrated. If you are rating players from the beginning of the season and comparing now- then it’s Kolb by a lightyear since not only is he not worth $65M, he’s not better than the backup QB.
Most underrated: C Campbell. That guy is a pro-bowl player. He should have been selected, IMHO. Sign him now, before he’s the next Rolle.
ROY: A tough one because it was such a good class. Hard for me to give it to PP only for punt returns. I’m going with Acho, because I felt his play in the second half of the season help solidify our defense and make it a top-tier defense.
Draft needs: I’m a believer in taking the best available and only that. Trade for what you need or sign FA. Clearly our offensive line needs some help, but I place a lot (or most) of the blame for the sack total on poor QB performance (Like Kolb running backwards for 10 yards out of the pocket is Levi’s fault?). I think most of the improvement over the second half of the season could just be that we put Skelton in, who had much better pocket presence and could take a hit or 2 and not go down.
Kolb trade: A disaster. I was against it, not because I didn’t think Kolb could be our guy, but because we gambled too much on an unproven commodity. Well, so far the gamble has us in the red- we paid $10M, a pro-bowl DB, and a 2nd round pick for 8 games of garbage play, where we went 2-6. Were there some good plays in there? Yes. Could he improve next year? Probably. Will he even be the starter next year? I have no idea. This was just a really risky move for basically no reason. Yeah, I know about Fitz and all, but I’m sure he’d have been happy after what he got from Skelton this year, or if we had signed Orton. Too bad his stock is so low we can’t even trade him.
Beanie Wells: God I hope so. We finally had a running game. Unfortunately, our schedule next year is so tough it will be hard to compare to this year. If we go 8-8 next year, our team will be twice as good as it was this year.
Kolb Trade
First I’ll freely admit I was 100% behind the trade and I’ll also admit I expected much better play from Kolb. But at the same time, I think it’s still too early to call it a disaster. I think we’ll see improved play from him this coming season once he has an offseason under his belt to work with the team and have a firm grasp of the offense. There’s no way he fully understand the playbook at the start of the season.
I also think that for Kolb to reach his max potential, he needs a solid OL in front of him. Some QB’s can handle an inconsistent OL and still thrive (Big Ben and Tony Romo come to mind and I think Skelton has a bit of that in him as well) but Kolb needs a clean pocket and if this team still sees him as their future then they have to put him in the best possible situation to succeed.
by Steamin' Beamin' on Jan 18, 2012 12:13 PM MST reply actions
Actually, it was a disaster and you agree with me...
Although you may not yet realize it.
Let me explain-
First, as others have also stated, you feel that Kolb needs a " solid OL in front of him" to be successful, that he does not have the capability of playing with an “inconsistent OL”. I would agree. Thus, if you feel he will be successful next year (as you state), you must also postulate that the OL will be improved next year. Frankly, I don’t really see how that could happen. The one player consistently called the worst is Levi Brown, and he’s almost guaranteed to come back next year (although at a reduced salary). There’s just not a lot of options out there right now. Maybe we can draft in the OL- but what are the chances that a rookie OL will even be as good as a 1st round pick with 5 years of experience? There is none. Face it, the Cards have been looking for “an improved OL” for the last 10 years, and haven’t found it. What will change next year to make it a reality?
So your argument, on Kolb’s behalf next year, may not be that he doesn’t suck, but that it just isn’t his fault he sucks.
Secondly, as others have posted, he didn’t have an offseason. I will grant you that on day 1, he was certainly affected by the lack of the offseason. The offseason prepares players for the actual season by simulating actual games that actually count, without actually counting. That’s basically it, and you may face weakened defensive schemes (so teams given nothing away). But I will ask you, how many preseason games equal one actual regular season game in terms of experience and familiarity with a system? Even if the ratio is 1:1, after 3 regular season games, Kolb had all the preparation he would have had with a preseason. Even if you throw out his first 3 starts, he was still terrible. I ask you- what could be learned in the preseason that could NOT be learned in a regular season game? I don’t think the answer to this question could be anything other than “nothing”.
I hope Kolb drinks the magic Tebow koolaid or whatever and figues out how to read a defense, stay in the pocket when there’s protection, and make quality throws next year. But based on what we saw THIS season, it has SO FAR been a disaster. Frankly, I don’t see things changing too much next year, primarily because he’s going to have to be twice as good to win just as many games because of our schedule. Plus, the guy has yet to make it through 1 NFL season and his durability is a major concern.
That is a few stretches
You conveniently ignore his game against Dallas and his marked improvement. Also, 3 starts in how could he show improvement if it took Warner (as he said) 1 year to learn the system. Kolb, admittedly made the line look just as bad as they at times made him. With more confidence, a better understand of the offense and more experience he will be less likely to run around the pocket like a chicken with its head cut off. Again the Dallas game showed that improvement against a very good pass rushing team.
Truly we lost very little in the trade besides a 2nd round pick. DRC is overrated and is a terrible fit for this defense. I rather have a mediocre QB than a good CB anyways.
by Jesse Reynolds on Jan 18, 2012 2:10 PM MST up reply actions
LOL- you and your "conveniently ignore"
I tired of this argument. I don’t ignore squat. Kolb wasn’t even good against Dallas- he was ONLY GOOD in the 2nd HALF. will you disagree with that? And even if he had 1 good game, he had 7 other lousy ones. Who is ignoring here? Skelton is actually the best QB in the history of the NFL if you only consider the final drive of the final game of the season, and look at nothing else.
Your statement “Also, 3 starts in how could he show improvement if it took Warner (as he said) 1 year to learn the system.” is full of fallacy. I assume you mean that if it took Warner 1 year to learn a system, then it is not feasable for Kolb to learn a system in 3 games. First, just because Warner said it does not make it true. Second, this is false and hinges on a lot of variables, mainly given that Warner and Kolb are the same person or behave as the same person would. Also that they are of similar intelligence, and that the system they are playing in is the same or equally complex. None of these actually hold true. An equal and also fallacious argument of the same weight could be made that Andy Daulton was able to learn his system after 3 games with no offseason (he went 8-5), so Kolb should have also been able to do it- actually he should have been even better given he’s not a rookie and played professional football for 4 years (and was a 2nd round draft pick, etc.).
I agree with your statement “With more confidence, a better understand of the offense and more experience he will be less likely to run around the pocket like a chicken with its head cut off.” Unfortunately, there is no guarantee that another year in this system would actually give him more confidence. Moreover, my assessment was made from what we have seen so far. I deem the trade a disaster, and Kolb can prove me wrong next year. He cannot, however, prove me wrong based on his performace thus far.
“Truly we lost very little in the trade besides a 2nd round pick. DRC is overrated and is a terrible fit for this defense.”
That’s like, your opinion, man.
" I rather have a mediocre QB than a good CB anyways."
Congrats. That’s what you have. Enjoy.
"he was ONLY GOOD in the 2nd HALF"
Both of our QBs have failed to play 4 complete quarters of solid football. That is something an NFL starting QB should be able to provide. Not saying they have to be great but you can’t suck for all but the last quarter of the game. Skelton has only played well in the (mainly) 4th quarter. He has done basically jack in the first half of every single game.
I also agree with Jesse in saying DRC would suck in this defensive system. Horton wants “small guys that can tackle/hit” DRC is the complete opposite of that.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
So you agree then that Kolb has sucked this year?
Because that’s what I’m saying. Re: Skelton, I’m not saying he is the greatest QB, or even a good one. Only that you can’t take things (like marked improvement a whopping 1 game) out of context and ascribe some sort of meaning to it despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary (i.e., Kolb doesn’t suck because he had that one game that one time where he didn’t suck for 2 quarters). Also, there are lots of ways to guage a QB’s worth, and certainly one of them is being able to win games. If that is any sort of measuring stick, you have to concede that at least Skelton has shown an ability to do that (his record is 6-2). Is there any QB measuring stick that suggests Kolb is anything more than mediocre? Or even that good?
I’m not going to pretend that I know how DRC would have done this year in our new defensive scheme, but don’t forget PP was burned repeatedly at the beginning of the year for long TDs. If DRC was playing, perhaps PP can sit and learn for a few weeks, and we don’t give up those plays. But we’ll never really know. Fact is, though, that DRC has been to a pro-bowl and gets picks. We gave him up for essentially nothing if Kolb continues to suck. And now he does suck, as you have agreed. Thus the deal was a bad one as of now. I rest my case. Thank you.
DRC was a probowl reserve... his play in Philly should say enough.
The entire team sucked the first half of the season.
But it is easier to blame one guy than the team. No point in arguing.
To each their own.
Oh and saying Skelton won those games is just as ludicrous as saying Kolb lost the games he played in.
Skelton was terrible on the road and only won his games because the defense and special teams made spectacular plays.
Again, to each their own.
by Jesse Reynolds on Jan 18, 2012 4:20 PM MST up reply actions
I wouldn't go as far as to say he sucked
But he wasn’t good enough. Same goes for Skelton, they both underperformed at that position for us. I am of the belief that our defense gave our team a chance to win during the second half of the season and were almost historically bad in the first half. For that reason the records don’t matter as much but I look at it game by game. The stats (outside the record) are pretty similar for the most part.
Kolb had leads going into the 4th quarter in quite a few games and not only did our defense give up the leads but we (generally) failed to put up points in the 4th. Not all these mistakes were Kolbs fault (the Chancy Stucky play really sticks in my mind). Skelton was always playing catch-up in all his games and our defense held up, thus resulting in wins.
All I am looking for is someone that can play steady for 4 quarters. If neither one of our QBs are better next season we have to look elsewhere.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
Wow Tony,
you should be running this site.
Formerly known as Cardsfan928, If you wanna grab a quick game of madden, my screenname is also my Xbox name.
by INSOMAN1ATIC on Jan 19, 2012 8:20 AM MST up reply actions
He mentioned it,
Let’s not forget, the second half of the Dallas game was without Demarcus Ware.
Formerly known as Cardsfan928, If you wanna grab a quick game of madden, my screenname is also my Xbox name.
by INSOMAN1ATIC on Jan 19, 2012 8:18 AM MST up reply actions
More like a quarter
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
I'll focus on the OL issue
First of all this is an absolute false statement:
Face it, the Cards have been looking for "an improved OL" for the last 10 years, and haven’t found it.How does their drafting history since Levi Brown suggest that they’ve been “looking” for an improved line? They’ve completely ignored it and the play on the field is evidence of that.
I hope/pray/think that trend will change this April and I absolutely think that the quality of player who could be at #13 could step in and IMMEDIATELY be the best player on the this offensive line.
by Steamin' Beamin' on Jan 19, 2012 8:27 AM MST up reply actions
Overall history,
Not necessarily the “draft history since 2007” dictates the Cardinal’s struggle on the OL. I’ve been a fan of the Cardinals since they moved to AZ in 1987. In that time, the Cardinals have NEVER had a good running game, and every offseason there is discussion about what they will do to improve the OL. Levi Brown was a rare attempt at fixing the problem through the draft, and see how well that worked out for them. Although he improved as this year went on, he has been a very expensive project and I think the cardinal’s efforts have been centered on fixing the problem in FA.
And fixing holes in roster via free agency has worked extremely well for what team?
The Redskins “win” free agency ever year and it never works, the Eagles went crazy last offseason and look where they ended up. All I saying is that it’s finally time to restock the OL pantry with some young talent. Continuing to ignore one of the most important positional groups every April isn’t a recipe for success.
Go big or go home!! Bet big to win big!!
by Steamin' Beamin' on Jan 20, 2012 8:50 AM MST up reply actions
I don't disagree with your strategy
Just your assertion that the Cardinals haven’t been trying. This is an on-going problem, and they’ve been unable to address it for almost 2 decades.
You are right
Re: Skelton. He did not win those games by himself. If he was the only player, the opposition would have scored on every play of the game, and the Cardinals would have drawn penalties on every play for not enough men on the line of scrimmage. We would have lost every game this year if it wasn’t for everyone on the team except for Skelton. It would have been as bad as the NYG vs. mini-Ditka in 1987.
The QB runs the offense. If the QB leads a comeback victory at the end of the game, people usually say the QB came back and won the game. But not you, Mr. Reynolds. It was everyone else EXCEPT that guy. Similarly, If the QB has the ball and a chance to tie or win the game at the end of the game but fails, most people would say “Our QB sucks and cost us the game because he couldn’t perform in the clutch.” But not you, Mr. Reynolds.
I applaud you, Mr. Reynolds, for having such a unique perspective on cause and effect. You know that although all that matters in the W/L column in professional football is having the lead at the 60 Min mark, you know and appreciate that there are a lot of plays before that time that are just, if not more valuable than scoring at the end of the game when the outcome is on the line.
/LULZ
by tonyman121 on Jan 18, 2012 5:13 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
Jesse is right in the fact
that had the defense and ST not been lights out, those eye-popping 4th qtr stats by Skelton would simply be considered “padding stats in garbage time.” See the difference in perspective? Skelton would be terrible, defense played well to keep it close, Skelton plays well late.
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Can you show us the facts?
Seems like opinion.
Formerly known as Cardsfan928, If you wanna grab a quick game of madden, my screenname is also my Xbox name.
by INSOMAN1ATIC on Jan 19, 2012 8:26 AM MST up reply actions
Correct
Few people on this site understand the difference between “fact” and “my opinion is”.
So if Calais hadn't blocked that field goal against the Rams there was a Skelton loss.
If PP hadn’t returned a punt TD against St. Louis both times, then there’s another Skelton loss. Want anymore facts?
Wow- so much FAIL
What are these “facts”? I don’t get them. It seems to me you are proving my point since you clearly don’t know what a fact is…
It it YOUR opinion, not FACT, that you believe that the cardinals would have lost to the Rams if PP doesn’t return a punt for TD in game 1. I guess I will have to explain. For example, it is a FACT the cardinals won the game. It is a FACT that PP returned a punt to end it. It is your OPINION they would have lost if PP doesn’t return that kick. Do you understand why? It’s because FACTS, by their nature, are irrefutable. It is quite possible that PP calls for a fair catch, and Skelton drives the Cardinals for a winning score on the subsequent drive.
Similarly, it is your OPINION that if PP doesn’t return a punt for a TD with 3 min left in the 3rd quarter of game 2 with the rams that the Cardinals would have lost. This is, in fact, NOT A FACT AT ALL, but your opinion. There would still have been over a quarter left to play in the game for the Cardinals to score more points.
While I grant you that it was likely that if C. Cambell doesn’t block the FG try at the end of regulation the Cardinals may have lost, it is STILL NOT A FACT. The kicker could have missed the FG. It is even possible, or likely, that Calais was able to block the kick because it wasn’t a good one.
Thank you, Mr. Mann, for walking right into that one. This concludes our lesson for the day, kids.
/I weep for the AZ educational system
Just like it is your opinion that Skelton is the better QB? You and Inso, seem to have an OPINION that Skelton is the better QB, yet when asked why, you don't produce FACTS
I agree with you on one thing though. The Arizona Educational System is a joke. That is why I attend a College Prep School.
Yes, that is my opinion.
I have stated why in countless posts in this thread. I have provided abundant evidence that supports my claim, including the Cardinals success with Skelton’s games, and lack of success in Kolb’s.
But if you look at games,
Kolb averaged more points and yards. The defense gave up more points in games Kolb played. As soon as Skelton came in, they averaged plenty less. This can be attributed to two things. 1) They respond better to Skelton, or 2) They came alive. I’m going with number 2 because they played well with Kolb in the Dallas game. I guess we’ll just have to find out whether or not the Kolb deal was stupid or not next season. There’s really no point in debating whether or not Skelton should start. Whiz said he’ll give Skelton a chance to start so we’ll see how it goes.
unfortunately, points and yards
do not always correlate to success. And as I pointed out eariler, there is essentially no difference in point totals between the 2 QBs (offensive points scored). MAybe the defense played slightly better with Skelton (for whatever reason), but whether or not that was significant to the outcome (betwen the 2 QBs) is very debatable.
Or maybe it simply took some time for the defense to learn a new system and as they learned, they improved. Which in turn meant that whoever was QB, had to do less in order to win.
Go big or go home!! Bet big to win big!!
by Steamin' Beamin' on Jan 20, 2012 8:51 AM MST up reply actions
Sure.
I am not arguing any of that. Maybe Kolb had to do more. He still did not. Maybe Skelton had to do less. He did what was required.
I focus at the end of the game, because for both of them, in 13/16 games, the situation was similar- you have the ball- now win us the game! Skelton could. Kolb- not so much.
Perhaps in a different system, Kolb would look far superior to Skelton and we are not having this discussion. Perhaps, if Kolb was in Baltimore, people could be talking about how awesome he is, as they blow people away 20-0. But we are not privity to that alternate universe- they were both within the same system, and we saw what we saw. In our system, Skelton looked better, IMHO.
In our system, Skelton looked better, IMHO.
I think the better word would be in this situation he did better, but that is just nitpicking.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
Yes, maybe that is more accurate
but the situation was presented in 13/16 games, and I find that to be a pretty good measuring stick for these 2.
I see a difference
In that if Kolb played every game, we may have ended the season 2-14 given his ability to choke. All our games were close. The defense always gave us a chance to win. Only 1 of our 2 quarterbacks managed to give us a lead as time expired (on a regular basis). Only 1 of our 2 quarterbacks lead the victory formation.
Say what you want about the defense “winning games for us”, but they hardly put any points on the board. The only 2 games all season where the defense didn’t give us a chance were Vs. MIN and vs. PIT. And both games were great displays of Kolb’s sucktitude.
I am being facetious when I mention Skelton as the sole cause of victory, BTW. This is a team game. But how can you (or Mr. Reynolds) deny that Skelton is at his best when the game is on the line, that Kolb is not, and insinuate that somehow it doesn’t matter?
So when the defense blew leads against
The Ravens, Giants, Seahawks, and Redskins it was because Kolb couldn’t get it done. I agree, he didn’t play well this season. Our defense and offensive line sure didn’t help him either.
Skelton is better when the game is on the line, but with Skelton every game is one the line because he sucks so terribly the first three quarters. He constantly puts the defense in bad positions. He was the reason for our loss to Cincinnati.
I am by no means saying Kolb isn’t responsible for the losses when he played. He definitely played a part. But letting the Giants score 14 points in 4 minutes can’t be blamed on him.
We would have lost to St. Louis twice if not for special teams play. Skelton had horrible games against a terrible team. I’m sorry, but Skelton is vastly overrated. As Jess said above, it’s perspective.
It was fun discussing this with you but we are going in circles, so I think it’s time to stop. Please enjoy the last word :)
by Jesse Reynolds on Jan 18, 2012 7:29 PM MST up reply actions
Explain this to me then
Avg points scored in a Kolb start: 20.25
Avg points scored in a Skelton start: 18.75
Avg points allowed in a Kolb start: 24.5
Avg points allowed in a Skelton start: 19
And no the difference wasn’t that Skelton protected the ball better because he had 15 turnovers in his eight starts (yes I counted the second SF game as his start not Kolb’s b/c Kolb threw one pass) while Kolb had 11 turnovers in his eight games.
So why exactly is Skelton such a better QB?
by Steamin' Beamin' on Jan 19, 2012 8:48 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Fallacy of omission
If the only evidence that separated the two QBs was indeed listed above, you would be correct. Your fallacy lies in that other factors decide a QB’s worth beyond those you mention.
But first, let us discuss the numbers you provide. Although you do not explicitly state it, it can be inferred from your comments that you suspect that Kolb was better than Skelton because under Kolb, the Cardinals scored more, on average, per game. I would argue this is simply not the case. You might say, “are you crazy? 20.25 is more than 18.75!!” I, and statisticians out there, would correct you and tell you there is absolutely no difference. There is, in fact, no statistical difference between those two numbers, because A) the magnitude of effect (the difference) is small, and B) the sample size (number of games) is too few to draw conclusions based on this small difference. Since points are not in decimal but in whole numbers, the ACTUAL difference between the two averages is: Kolb’s starts= 20 pts, Skelton’s starts= 19 pts. Now, if your claims is actually “There is no difference between our 2 QBs in terms of points per game performance” , the I would agree with you.
Regarding the defensive performance, it seems there may be a small difference between the games started by either QB. However, defense and offense are not mutually exclusive. QB performance has an indirect, but real impact on the points the defense allows. An example of this could be Kolb’s inability to move the ball in the 4th quarter vs. NYG, giving the giants an opportunity to score a lot of points in a brief amount of time. Or Kolb’s pick at the end of the BAL game (in Cards territory) that directly resulted in BAL scoring points. Of course, I’m being selective with my examples, but the relationship holds true. Further, you cannot dissociate that the defense plays better with Skelton for yet unspecified reasons, but that a tanglible difference occurs (such as the defense hates Kolb and don’t try when he starts). While that example is unlikely to be true, you cannot rule out the possibility that the defense is playing better, in part, because Skelton is playing.
Lastly, I would double check your TO numbers. Although it is known Skelton had 14 picks and Kolb 8- I saw Kolb had 8 fumbles to Skelton’s 3.
Lastly, as I mentioned at the beginning, there is a plethora of evidence that suggests Skelton was better than Kolb this year. My favorite points follow:
Each player essentially had the same number of games (8). in those games:
1. Kolb went 2-6, Skelton 6-2
2. Kolb played so poorly that the cards were out of the game by halftime twice, Skelton only once (skelton could actually play his way back into games- see CIN)
3. Regardless of all other factors, Kolb/the Cardinals had the ball and a chance to win or tie a game in 6 of his 8 starts. In those 6 games, he only won 2. (I interpret this as NOT CLUTCH). Skelton, given the same circumstances, had the ball and a chance to tie or win the game in 7 of his 8 starts. In those games, he went 6-1. That is clutch, my friend.
check out the fanpost I just posted
It’s got some stats for you.
I only counted fumbles lost as turnovers.
by Steamin' Beamin' on Jan 19, 2012 11:30 AM MST up reply actions
Very well argued.
It is hard to disagree with that, yet you attribute wins to Skelton that he had little to no impact on. Against the Rams it was a 99 yard PR that won the game, how does that make Skelton clutch? He didn’t even throw for 150 yards, if not for a career and franchise day by Beanie we would have lost. Again, how does that equate to Skelton being clutch?
Now I do agree that Skelton is “clutch” but only because he only plays well in the fourth and yet you give him more credit than he deserves.
Against the Niners it was Fitz that bailed him out with catches few humans could make. Consistently Skelton has been bailed out by defensive and special teams play. A blocked punt, a PR return, a sack fumble on the opponents 3 yard line, a fourth down stop. How often was Kolb the benefactor of such plays?
When it comes down to it we won games because of our defense not because of QB play. We won despite Skelton, not because of Skelton.
by Jesse Reynolds on Jan 19, 2012 12:19 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Good point
I would say that neither QB ‘won’ a game for us. In wins, they played well enough not to lose, in losses, the defense let them down and they couldn’t win it by themselves.
Follow me on Twitter at @AlexDavidson68
The differences have nothing to do with fact- only interpretation
regarding your comments:
1. “Against the Rams it was a 99 yard PR that won the game, how does that make Skelton clutch? He didn’t even throw for 150 yards, if not for a career and franchise day by Beanie we would have lost. Again, how does that equate to Skelton being clutch?”
A: Skelton played well enough in 1st first game, cold off the bench, to put is in position to win the game with the PP return. Even without that return, the Cardinals would have had the ball, and Skelton would have had a chance to win the game. Suggesting that we would have lost without PP’s return would be false. Further, your statement that " if not for a career and franchise day by Beanie we would have lost," is NOT supported in fact. The Cardinals offense put up 374 yards of offense, 102 more than the Rams. The running game was particularly effective, but there is absolutely no way to predict how the game would have played out had Wells been ineffective. Why would you expect Skelton to even throw the ball when the running game was unstoppable? Regardless, the game was tied 20-20 when the Cardinals got the ball at their own 25 and engineered a 8-play, 71-yard drive to take the lead. After a defensive stop, the Cardinals got the ball at their own 39. Skelton engineered an 8-play drive to run out the clock. That is exactly what Kolb HASN’T been able to do all season.
2. “Against the Niners it was Fitz that bailed him out with catches few humans could make. Consistently Skelton has been bailed out by defensive and special teams play. A blocked punt, a PR return, a sack fumble on the opponents 3 yard line, a fourth down stop. How often was Kolb the benefactor of such plays?”
A: You’re looking at this all wrong. I think’s it’s funny how Fitz “bailed” out Skelton routinely, but not Kolb. The only possible explanation is the Kolb probably slept with Fitz’s wife, so Fitz refuses to catch his passes, only Skelton’s. You selectively take an example, here completions to Fitz to give him crazy numbers, and only attribute them entirely to Fitz and not the guy who threw the ball. I find that fascinating. Why couldn’t Kolb do that? I think if you look seriously at how the season played out, you’ll see special teams play helped both QBs. I’m pretty sure Kolb’s 1st win (CAR) was also a result of a PP return. Furthermore, his second win was a result of divine Tebowness. “But but but… only Skelton gets lucky breaks!!!!” No, both QBs did. Skelton took advantage and won games. And none of this admonishes Kolb from the fact that in basically every game he played this season, he COULD HAVE WON. He was in position to win or tie. Vs. NYG, BAL, WAS, and SEA he had that opportunity but failed. Skelton made the most of his opportunities. The only failure was at CIN, and it could be argued that if not for Ducet’s clumsiness we could have won that game was well and gone 9-7 for the season. But I DON’T blame Ducet, becaus Skelton had other opportunities, and for a rare instance was unable to take advantage.
3. "When it comes down to it we won games because of our defense not because of QB play. We won despite Skelton, not because of Skelton.
A: This is also NOT supported by facts. The defense did not throw for 11 TD passes this season and did not run the victory formation twice. While it’s true Skelton’s performance leaves much to be desired, his ability to come back and win games has been impressive and arguing against his ability to do just that (or giving him no credit) makes you all look foolish, IMHO. The defense did it’s part ALL SEASON. Even if they were not as effective in the beginning of the season, they played well enough to give the offense (or special teams) a chance to win. From that perspective, Skelton surely outperformed Kolb. Now, if your measuring stick of a quality QB is being from Texas or having unkempt hair, then Kolb is better hands down.
The defense did not do its part all season
They were historically bad the first 3 games and continued to suck until midway through the season. Coincidentally that is when Skelton started getting the nod to start with Kolb injured. You could see in the quotes and interviews with the defensive side of the ball that they were grasping the defense more and more as the season progressed and this, IMO, is the biggest reason they improved. We were allowing far fewer PPG and had the defense continued to play as bad as they did to start the year Skelton’s record would look about the same as Kolbs.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
by Airwave on Jan 19, 2012 1:12 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
They may have played well enough to win early on
but they absolutely played better in the second half. During the first half of the Baltimore game, we saw how good the defense could play, and the rest of the season showed that improvement. I think everyone agrees that the play between both QBs was very close, evident from the constant debate being waged on RotB.
But you can’t ignore the fact that the defense played much better after that Baltimore game. We improved in almost every defensive statistic, and starting winning a lot more. There is a big difference between playing good enough to win, and playing good. Skelton is attributed with a better record because he was playing with a good defense. An equally effective (or ineffective) Kolb is attributed with his losing record because of lesser defensive play.
Follow me on Twitter at @AlexDavidson68
Agree and disagree
I agree with this:
" They may have played well enough to win early on but they absolutely played better in the second half. During the first half of the Baltimore game, we saw how good the defense could play, and the rest of the season showed that improvement. "
I disagree with this:
“Skelton is attributed with a better record because he was playing with a good defense. An equally effective (or ineffective) Kolb is attributed with his losing record because of lesser defensive play.”
If the 2 QBs performed the same, you would expect them to have similar outcomes given similar situations. This year has shown us this is not the case. No one has yet given me a single stat than can explain why, given the same clutch situation faced 13 times this season (having the ball at the end of regulation with a chance to tie or win) Skelton went 7-1 and Kolb 2-4.
Now, granted, they may both be equally ineffective OVERALL, but they are not equally ineffective at the end of the game when it counts. And frankly, I don’t get how you all can overlook this.
I missed the memo where "clutch" became a quantifiable stat tracked by the NFL
And not something more than your personal interpretation of the guy you like winning a couple games and the guy you don’t like losing a couple games. There were many factors contributing to those outcomes as well as each QB’s individual performances, so many that it would be foolish to look at a loss and conclude that the primary reason for that loss is that one player isn’t “clutch.” Pay more attention to the facts and opinions of your own reasoning before you criticize everyone else’s.
pretty sure I see all the facts.
Please let me know the ones I missed. That show Kolb to be Superior this season to Skelton.
Also, I never claim (EVER) that the the wins were soley due to Skelton, or the losses soley due to Kolb. In fact, I ridiculed this notion several times, although you may have mistaken my sarcasm.
I guess I made up
Wins and losses as a metric of success. My bad.
So you agree that Vince Young is an outstanding QB then?
If wins and losses is all that matters then VY is HOF bound.
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by Steamin' Beamin' on Jan 20, 2012 8:53 AM MST up reply actions
Wins and losses
May not be all that matters. But it is significant. I guess the who world was crazy and upside-down when Young won ROY and went to a pro-bowl.
Young certainly had the ability to take control of a game. But he was undiciplined and had mental problems. Ultimately, teams figured him out and he lost his poise.
Pro Bowls are an absolute joke
If you need proof, Tim Tebow is a first alternate this season.
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by Steamin' Beamin' on Jan 20, 2012 9:12 AM MST up reply actions
Tim Tebow...
Not that’s an interesting player. Tim Tebow is so bad that he:
1. Beat Pittsburgh, a team that made Kolb look like Derrick Anderson
2. Threw for 316 yards in that game with 2 TDs/0INTS
3. Ran for 50 yards and another TD (3 TDs total)
that’s how terrible Tim Tebow can be.
Not saying Timmy is a good QB. But he’s perfect for the Denver system, and Denver has shown to be much better as a team with him than Orton.
awesome, one great game
How about the next week when he completed 9 passes? Or the week before when he completed 6 passes? Both those games ended in a loss and his offense scored a combined 13 points. Yea he’s a terrific player.
Go big or go home!! Bet big to win big!!
by Steamin' Beamin' on Jan 20, 2012 9:30 AM MST up reply actions
yup- look at all the games
Denver without Tebow: 1-4
Denver with Tebow: 7-4, plus go to the playoffs.
Again, not arguing he is a good QB. But he’s good for their scheme (or was this year), and had at least one game, against an opponent Kolb also faced, and was a better QB on that day than Kolb was.
The only problem is that Kolb and Skelton weren't in similar situations
Yes, both of them had chances to win/tie the game on a final drive of the game. Skelton thrives in these situations, Kolb hasn’t shown the ability to do the same(although some of that blame can be attributed to poor plays from his teammates, but i digress).
I, as well as several other RotB members, that given the same defense, Kolb wouldn’t have to attempt to win or tie it on the very last drive, because he would already have staked his team to a comfortable lead.
I would rather have the QB who has us ahead early, and continues to build on that lead, rather than the QB scrambling to put up points in the last quarter.
Follow me on Twitter at @AlexDavidson68
Some similarities were seen...
but obviously no two games were exactly the same.
you say "Yes, both of them had chances to win/tie the game on a final drive of the game. Skelton thrives in these situations, Kolb hasn’t shown the ability to do the same(although some of that blame can be attributed to poor plays from his teammates, but i digress). "
Those are indeed similar circumstances. In those circumstances Skelton performed better.
You state:
“I would rather have the QB who has us ahead early, and continues to build on that lead, rather than the QB scrambling to put up points in the last quarter.”
And you are entitled to your opinion. I, however, prefer a quarterback that wins the game. I do not feel that all time in a game is of equal importance. For instance, I suspect that the final 5 minutes of the game are of greater importnace than the first 5. That is because I understand math. The outcome of the game is not decided by who holds the lead longer over the duration of the game, but who has the lead when the clock is 00:00. It doesn’t even have to be the better team. The complexity and pressures of the game certainly are not equal for the entire game either. Teams can dink around and try to establish the run and open the playbook etc. in the beginning. But in the 4th quarter it is all about winning the game, and doing what you have to do to accomplish that goal. In that sense, I like Skelton’s ability to do what it takes to win. He takes over the game. Even in the Cini game, despite the loss, you knew that if Ducet catches that ball in the endzone, the Cardinals were going to win the game. I knew the Cards were going to come back. Actually, I was shocked we lost. Oppositely, at halftime of the BAL game, I knew we would lose the game, and that our lead was totally unsustainable. The game seems to dictate to Kolb how he will perform, and for Skelton, it’s seems to be the opposite (albeit, it is unfortunately always late in the game).
Alright
At this point, i can see this debate going nowhere. Your going to stick to your position, and i will stick to mine, no amount of arguing will change the other’s position. As well, all the points are being rehashed, to no avail. Let’s just hope, for the Cardinals sake, that one of these QBs can play consistently next season and put this debate to rest
Follow me on Twitter at @AlexDavidson68
And you are entitled to your opinion. I, however, prefer a quarterback that wins the game. I do not feel that all time in a game is of equal importance. For instance, I suspect that the final 5 minutes of the game are of greater importnace than the first 5.
I’ll contend that if Skelton had played early in the season when the defense was averaging over 26 points allowed per game (including 4 games over 30 in the first 7), it wouldn’t have mattered how “clutch” he was in the final 5 minutes because he would have been down by multiple touchdowns.
Skelton was able to engineer all these great “clutch” moments because the defense kept them in games. He never started a game where the offense scored more than 23 points so how “clutch” would he have been if the defense is allowing 26?
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by Steamin' Beamin' on Jan 20, 2012 8:58 AM MST up reply actions
That's a hypothesis, at least
but did you see the Cinci game? Your exact scenario was played out- the defense was BAD (they gave up an opening drive TD, and were not their usual “2nd half of the season” selves), and in the 4th Skelton was down by multiple touchdowns.
Do you remember what happened? Skelton brought the Cards back anyway. He had a chance to tie, perhaps win the game. It did not work out, but he TOOK OVER THE GAME. I just don’t see Kolb doing that.
So he wasn't clutch or he was?
He had the chance to tie or win but didn’t get it done, that’s all I hear you holding against Kolb.
Go big or go home!! Bet big to win big!!
by Steamin' Beamin' on Jan 20, 2012 9:31 AM MST up reply actions
He was.
We went 7-1 in those situations. That’s clutch, IMHO. I didn’t say he was Superman.
It could be said he was 0-1 with a bad defense
Then 5-1 with a good game, the second loss being the SF game that Skelton sucked so much he was benched.
In my opinion. I consider the Rams game nullified because I’d rather not hand out a win to a QB who basically handed the ball to the RB the whole game.
I don’t like to use QB wins as a stat. An example is the BAL-NE game in the playoffs. Flacco lost, but he was clearly the best QB on the field and did everything in his power to win the game, but Lee Evans dropped the ball in the end zone.
That is on par with the SB rings argument since Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson having rings and Kelly and Marino missing theirs removes credibility to the argument.
Wow
I did see the Cinci game and it was because of Skelton we lost. How many yards and picks did he have? The world through rose colored lense.
by Jesse Reynolds on Jan 20, 2012 12:44 PM MST up reply actions
again, that is your opinion.
I won’t argue Skelton played well for 60 minutes. He had 3 picks, and those TO’s resulted in 10 points. But why do you state that it was “because of Skelton we lost”? (he had 257 yards passing, BTW)
You can say his imbalanced play could not overcome a good Cinci team.
You can say his 4th quarter performance wasn’t enough this time.
You can say he did not play well enough to win the game.
But how can you say it was because of him we lost? Or that we win in spite of him?
Now, if Skelton was not playing and we had Peyton Manning, maybe we win by 50 points. Skelton performed poorly for 3 quarters. But in the 4th, he was as good as Manning or Brees. He got the team back from a 23-0 deficit, and put them in position to tie the game. I think that’s pretty impressive.
Constantly putting your team in that position isn't what I would call impressive
You constantly belittle others opinions and talk of fact, the only fact you have is his record which is not a true indicator of his ability to win.
You are certainty entitled to your opinion, I just do not understand how your opinion is more valid or more correct than others here on this board.
And BTW Skelton had 297 yards passing, which amounted to a whopping 16 points, 3 turnovers, a 52% completion rage and was sacked 5 times. Besides his yards, Skelton did almost nothing to put the team in a position to win, it was quite the opposite, he constantly put the defense in a bad position. Skelton’s ability to pick it up in the fourth is remarkable, but it is not enough.
If you want to believe Skelton is good because he is the benefactor of a good defense and some amazing special teams play, your are entitled to your opinion. I’ll stick to the facts, he is a statistically bad QB.
by Jesse Reynolds on Jan 20, 2012 1:49 PM MST up reply actions
I love how he jumps back and forth
Stats don’t matter only being clutch and winning but whats his very first argument for Skelton in the Cincy game:
But why do you state that it was "because of Skelton we lost"? (he had 257 yards passing, BTW)Soooo I thought wins and losses were the end all be all, why are you defending a loss with stats?
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by Steamin' Beamin' on Jan 20, 2012 2:38 PM MST up reply actions
I wasn't.... but keep stuffing words in my mouth
Reynolds asked in his post, and I quote,:
“How many yards and picks did he have?”
Furthermore, I never claim “stats don’t matter.” I only claim they are not the only metric of assessing quality in a QB.
But go on, keep trying …
I never claim
My opinion is more valid than anyone else’s. I simply don’t mistake my opinion for fact, or vice versa, as everyone else seems to do. That is something I correct. I put forth my argument, and support it with facts. I’m sorry that angers you. I’m sorry that the metrics I chose to compare Skelton to Kolb were not convenient for you. I’m also sorry that neither QB was particularly good this season, but that doesn’t mean we can’t compare. I’m also sorry I understand math and statistics, and that there is basically no category anyone mentioned so far that really shows Kolb to be superior to Skelton (or at least has yet put forth a convincing argument). I chose to focus on evidence that supports my claim- that Skelton was better.
Look, if someone says “I think Kolb is better because I like consistency, and he was more consistent, in my opinion.” Fine. I won’t argue with that. But if someone misinterprets data or relies inaccurate facts, or claims their opinion as fact, I will point it out and call them on it. If someone cites some hypothetical situation like “Well, if the defense actually played well for Kolb like they did for Skelton, we would have won all the games” and claims it as fact, I will jump all over them because those arguments are fallacious. Sorry for that.
I chose to focus on evidence that supports my claim
That was all I needed to hear, it explains so much.
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by Steamin' Beamin' on Jan 20, 2012 2:53 PM MST up reply actions
That is how
you should structure your arguments. That is how you argue successfully.
Why promote evidence or opinions that do not support your thesis?
On the flip side, you are supposed to find weaknesses in an opponents arguments. That is why you all feel ganged up on by me- because I pick out that what you say is wrong (and it IS wrong), and you are having a difficult time doing the same with me.
whatever
I try to look at the data in front of me and form my opinion as opposed to forming my opinion and then finding data to back it up.
As I can see this is going nowhere, good day.
Go big or go home!! Bet big to win big!!
by Steamin' Beamin' on Jan 20, 2012 3:34 PM MST up reply actions
What makes you say
That I formed an opinion and found “data to back it up”? That is not how it happened. You have me all wrong. I did not hate Kolb and love Skelton, and then look for data that supported that.
I saw Kolb be miserable as our starting QB, and Skelton come in and win games. I saw him come alive in the 4th quarter of 7 of his 8 games, winning 6 of them. I saw the data, and formed my opinion based on the data.
Your arguments go nowhere with me because you cannot support them adequately.
If you could show me how Kolb was actually better than Skelton with sufficient and reliable data, I WOULD believe you and I could be convinced. But I have seen all the data people have put out there, and have formed the opinion that Skelton is better. I am telling you why. I’ve been telling you why. I have been showing data that supports this. Now, you don’t have to be convinced by it. But you certainly haven’t told my why my analyisis is faulty or incorrect.
Don't mistake Tony
I never get flustered with a debate. I do exactly as you. I look forward to arguing with people who attack my debate as in the end it only leads to me finding better ways to strengthen the holes and flaws within it.
People often make the mistake of becoming emotionally attached to an argument (not saying you do, or anyone else). When that happens being wrong is considered a negative. I do not see it that way, it is only another chance to learning.
I was merely stating that the way in which you use language to communicate your opinion states that is superior because other use opinion while you use facts. You are correct that we should say this is our opinion but on a forum about sports on a team in which we have no inside knowledge besides stats are not all our statements made from opinion? To me it seemed a given.
Back to the point at hand, how did you give Skelton all the credit for the victories? This logic I still do not understand as it is apparent that he did not win all those games. Special teams and defense did. THAT is fact. His improved play in the fourth helped but it was not the sole reason for those wins.
by Jesse Reynolds on Jan 20, 2012 5:37 PM MST up reply actions
No,
they gang up on anyone in Skelton’s corner. Your a lawyer aren’t you tony?
Formerly known as Cardsfan928, If you wanna grab a quick game of madden, my screenname is also my Xbox name.
by INSOMAN1ATIC on Jan 20, 2012 4:07 PM MST up reply actions
+1
I enjoy it too. Very much.
I am also sorry, Insoman1atic, that you feel everyone “gangs” up on you. Maybe it is the incendiary language of calling people “Kolb Knobbers” when they don’t agree with you.
What do I know though, I am just an over zealous mod.
by Jesse Reynolds on Jan 20, 2012 5:41 PM MST up reply actions
Kolb Knobber,
seriously get over it, it was months ago.
Formerly known as Cardsfan928, If you wanna grab a quick game of madden, my screenname is also my Xbox name.
by INSOMAN1ATIC on Jan 20, 2012 7:34 PM MST up reply actions
Yep,
and was it not in response to Skelton slurper? Seriously I withheld judgment on Kolb until the bye week, and do you know what he gave us…NOTHING 1-5….WOW that is some potential franchise guy.
Formerly known as Cardsfan928, If you wanna grab a quick game of madden, my screenname is also my Xbox name.
by INSOMAN1ATIC on Jan 21, 2012 7:53 PM MST up reply actions
I think I was the first one to use "Skelton Slurper"
And it was mostly as a joke so we could have a nickname to go with Kolb Knobber
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by JoeCB1991 on Jan 22, 2012 11:38 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Preference,
I would rather have the QB that starts out slow, and gives me (the fan) an exciting game to watch at the end.
Formerly known as Cardsfan928, If you wanna grab a quick game of madden, my screenname is also my Xbox name.
by INSOMAN1ATIC on Jan 19, 2012 9:29 PM MST up reply actions
Really?
Give any offense in the NFL enough time on the field and they WILL score points. So the losses to the Ravens, Giants, Seahawks and Redskins you mentioned are all from the D collapsing and not the offense completely stalling out in the second half?
Formerly known as Cardsfan928, If you wanna grab a quick game of madden, my screenname is also my Xbox name.
Overrated: I would say Skelton is overrated. Yeah he helped win some games, but he put us in the hole in almost every one of those games, and I attribute those wins to the emergence of a strong defensive and special teams unit that kept us in those games. Majority of those wins came in spite of Skelton not because of Skelton. If you listen to a lot of fans, Skelton is the savior, when the reality shows he an inconsistent turnover machine who shows flashes of big play ability. His 6-2 record is not indiciative of his performance on the field IMO.
ROY: I am gonig to give it to Anthony Sherman. It was painfully obvious that he was the catalyst to Beanie’s 1000 yard season. When Sherman was in the lineup, the running game moved the ball. When he wasn’t, the running game was grounded.
Draft needs: Tackle is the obviouls answer, but how realistic is it for a rookie Tackle to step in and be an elite LT from day 1? I think we are probably due for a let down if that’s the expectation. The Cardinals definitely need an elite OLB, Sco and Cho don’t strike fear into anyone. I like that Upshaw kid from Bama, he seems like a monster coming off the edge, a la Harrison, Ware, Matthews. Also need some additional depth on the D Line, and some more ILB help alongside DWash.
Kolb trade: i was against it at the start because he’s unproven, and I still think he’s unproven. I won’t call it a bust yet until Kolb has a full offseason and we see how he responds to a QB competition in camp. Assuming Kolb wins the starting job ( I think he will), I’ll be interested to see how he does next season. The Dallas game showed me that he has the ability to stand in the pocket, I want to see if he can do it for a full season.
Beanie: Last season was his first that he came close to the potential he showed as a 1st round pick. I am still irritated that we passed on Shady McCoy for Beanie, but I believe Ryan Williams can be something special and if he can stay healthy, Beanie and Williams can be a very productive tandem in the mold of Jacobs/Bradshaw for the NYG.
Underrated: I think Lyle Sendlein deserves some praise here. Our Tackle situation is not good. Our interior line is surprisingly pretty good. Sendlein, as an undrafted player, is becoming the anchor for our line. Few mistakes, plays consistently, and is a strong anchor for our O Line.
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Patrick Peterson is the 2nd coming of Deion Sanders. They even wear the same number.
How is a back-up QB overrated?
I guess that is just in the eyes of the fans based on Skelton supporters.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
listening to some Cardinals fans
Skelton is the 2nd coming. He hasn’t shown anything that says he should be a starter in the NFL other than there’s no other otion on the roster. He wouldn’t start on 31 other teams, why should he start on ours?
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
Patrick Peterson is the 2nd coming of Deion Sanders. They even wear the same number.
I wouldn't go that far
He would likely start on Indy(this season), Washington, Miami, Seattle, NY Jets, and Denver.
Follow me on Twitter at @AlexDavidson68
I'll give you Indy (this season only)
And possibly Washington.
No chance Skelton would have started in Miami, Seattle, NYJ, or Denver.
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
Patrick Peterson is the 2nd coming of Deion Sanders. They even wear the same number.
Well
According to three of my friends, who are Miami, Seattle and Denver fans, they agreed with my that Skelton would have started, or at least earn the starting job eventually. Miami desperately needs a young QB, they probably would have given him a shot once there season was over. Seattle is a very good team, minus T-Jackson, Tavaris brings them down, they would likely have given Skelton a shot. And Skelton is just a better Tebow, he wins games and doesn’t look completely ridiculous while doing so. As far as the Jets go, i just assume that Skelton would get his chance considering how bad Sanchez plays. Thats just what i’ve heard from their fans about their starting QB.
Follow me on Twitter at @AlexDavidson68
I’m sure some fans would say Skelton should start for those teams, but I’m 100% confident Denver would NEVER start Skelton over Tebow. Seattle’s coaches chose Tarvaris and stuck with him, I’m confident they would have done the same even if Skelton was there. Maybe he would have played in Miami, but probably only after Henne was hurt.
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
Patrick Peterson is the 2nd coming of Deion Sanders. They even wear the same number.
Either way
We have nothing to go off of, its only assumptions from both you and me. I think we can both agree that neither Kolb or Skelton are good enough to start over the majority of NFL QBs?
Follow me on Twitter at @AlexDavidson68
Couldn't agree more
I have hopes that one or the other (or both) will improve enough to be a consistent NFL QB.
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
Patrick Peterson is the 2nd coming of Deion Sanders. They even wear the same number.
Neither of our QBs played well enough to start really anywhere
Except for maybe Indy and Washington, as you said. They were pretty bad and it is not every day you see someone play as terrible as Skelton against the 9ers. Oh man I had so many DA flashbacks.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
and to best that,
The game Kolb had against the winless Vikings. Somewhere Andy Reid is somehow laughing and stuffing his face at the same time.
Formerly known as Cardsfan928, If you wanna grab a quick game of madden, my screenname is also my Xbox name.
by INSOMAN1ATIC on Jan 20, 2012 5:02 AM MST up reply actions
That was pretty bad
But that was also a full team meltdown in that game.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
Agreed
Arizona Cardinals/Chicago Bears fan
Phoenix Suns, Arizona Diamondbacks, Phoenix Coyotes, Arizona Rattlers fan
[I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Leading the NFL in swagtangibles
So the game in San Francisco,
can also be attributed to a total meltdown, right?
Formerly known as Cardsfan928, If you wanna grab a quick game of madden, my screenname is also my Xbox name.
by INSOMAN1ATIC on Jan 22, 2012 12:30 PM MST up reply actions
I still think the defense played well
They were given just ridiculous field position in where it was nearly impossible not to give up points. In the Minnesota game, AP just ran all over our D (and even through them) and we couldn’t stop McNabb himself LOL.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
The difference between the 2 games
Is that our defense was able to not give up a bunch of TDs in SF but couldn’t stop anyone in Minni.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
San Fran,
NFC championship berth…Minnesota…Picking in the top 5, nuff said…
Formerly known as Cardsfan928, If you wanna grab a quick game of madden, my screenname is also my Xbox name.
by INSOMAN1ATIC on Jan 22, 2012 9:12 PM MST up reply actions
Our defense played better against said 9ers
Than they did against Minni….. That is the point I am making.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
Yeah, but not to as much of a pathetic degree as the Minn game was
Arizona Cardinals/Chicago Bears fan
Phoenix Suns, Arizona Diamondbacks, Phoenix Coyotes, Arizona Rattlers fan
[I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Leading the NFL in swagtangibles
Kolb took us down field for a TD but the Refs called it back.
So he at least would have scored. And As Airwave said it was a complete team meltdown. They couldn’t stop AP on defense, couldn’t get pressure on McNabb, and on the rare occasion they did, they let him slip by them. We’re talking a 35 year old man, slipping by 25-26 year old LB’s.
Which would you rather:
RB1:
2009: 155 carries, 637 yds, 4 TDs, 40 rec, 308 yds, 0 TDs.
2010: 201 carries, 1080 yds, 7 TDs, 78 Rec, 592 Yds, 2 TDs.
2011: 273 carries, 1309 yds, 17 TDs, 48 rec, 315, 3 TDs
RB2:
2009: 54 carries, 257 yds, 3 TDs, 8 rec, 93 yds, 0 TDs
2010: 327 carries, 1616 yds, 16 TDs, 66 rec, 604 yds, 2 TDs
2011: 278 carries, 1274 yds, 10 TDs, 53 rec, 617 yds, 2 TDs
RB3:
2009: 176 carries, 793yds, 7 TDs, 12 rec, 143 yds, 0 TDs
2010: 116 carries, 397 yds, 2 TDs, 5 rec, 74 yds, 0 TDs
2011: 245 carries,1047 yds, 10 TDs, 10 rec,52 yds,0 TDs
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
Patrick Peterson is the 2nd coming of Deion Sanders. They even wear the same number.
I'll give you a hint
We drafted RB3.
RB1 and RB2 were both available ahen we drafted RB3. I’m pretty sure we that means we passed on RB1 and RB2.
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
Patrick Peterson is the 2nd coming of Deion Sanders. They even wear the same number.
would you rather have had Donald Brown or Knowshon Moreno?
The draft is an inexact science and you can play the “we passed on this guy that this guy” game every year. The fact is Wells was considered by all to be the best back on the board and I think most would agree the best overall player, regardless of position when we drafted. Second guessing that now is just taking the easy way out.
Go big or go home!! Bet big to win big!!
by Steamin' Beamin' on Jan 20, 2012 9:04 AM MST up reply actions
neither Brown or Moreno were on the board when we drafted so that's a moot point
My response was to twkr stating that the only relevant RB we passed on was Arian Foster, and I was responding to that.
I think McCoy was a better prospect at the time they were drafted, and he’s proven it on the field. It sucks we passed over him, but all I said was that it irritates me that we chose Beanie over McCoy. Not sure how that is second guessing anything.
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
Patrick Peterson is the 2nd coming of Deion Sanders. They even wear the same number.
If you really thought McCoy was better than Beanie at the time, then my hats off to you
The rest of the world agreed that the top three were Moreno, Brown and Beanie. I don’t remember anyone who put McCoy in that same class.
And while his comment may have been confusing, he was responding to your original comment of being irritated that we passed on McCoy for Beanie. That, unless that was your opinion three years ago, is second guessing.
Go big or go home!! Bet big to win big!!
by Steamin' Beamin' on Jan 20, 2012 12:50 PM MST up reply actions
Oops
I thought McCoy went ahead of us. I did not remember Brown being a first-round pick.
You’re right, though, Beamin,’ at the time McCoy was looked at as a change-of-pace back, I think, rather than the full-time fantasy stud that he has turned out to be.
I personally
thought at the time McCoy would be the better RB in the NFL. I desperately wanted the Cardinals to draft him if he was available when they drafted in the 1st round, and they passed on him for Beanie. I watched him play in HS and college and knew from the time he was in 11th grade that he would be in the NFL. It erks me to no end that he ended up on the Eagles and has turned out to be ridiculously good and the Cardinals whiffed on Beanie over McCoy.
Moreno looked good in college, Brown never did anything for me. Beanie isn’t terrible, if he can stay healhy I believe he can be a good RB. I’m super excited to see if Ryan Williams can get back to full strength, he was an absolute beast at VaTech when he was healthy. What is it with Cardinals and injury prone RBs?
We all bleed Cardinal Red, but most of us don't recognize it!
"It takes no talent to give great effort"--Chris Petersen
Patrick Peterson is the 2nd coming of Deion Sanders. They even wear the same number.
Exactly,
we could also say we passed on Patrick Willis for Levi Brown.
Formerly known as Cardsfan928, If you wanna grab a quick game of madden, my screenname is also my Xbox name.
by INSOMAN1ATIC on Jan 20, 2012 4:09 PM MST up reply actions
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